Re: Page layout for tubie pages on the net Re: Deep Space 845 55WSET amps.



flipper wrote:

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:14:43 GMT, Patrick Turner
<info@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:



Andre Jute wrote:

On Sep 18, 10:03 am, Patrick Turner <i...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Keithr wrote:

Patrick Turner wrote:

> Maybe I need better than Mozilla Composer, something that does it
better.
I hate paying for programs though, so what free page composer is there
that's better?

And it better deal with the issues we've raised.

Patrick Turner.

There is really nothing wrong with your web pages but if you do want to
do something more sophisticated, you could do worse than to go to

http://www.microsoft.com/express/vwd/

and download Visual Web Developer 2008 Express edition. It is a full
featured web page designer, and, strangely for Microsoft, it is entirely
free.

It may be more than you want or need, but it beats Word hands down (Word
had a very poor reputation for the quality of the HTML that it produces).

Keith

I'm so far so good with MS Word.

Ta for the tip though.

Patrick Turner.

I wouldn't touch any of the current dedicated HTML editors even with
Keith's ***. Why? After all, some are fabulously good and some are
even free. Simple: ask a more relevant question than how good or
inexpensive they are. How many *dedicated* HTML shells have been
dropped by Microsoft and others, leaving their users in the lurch,
with pages that have to be laboriously reedited -- if they are even
recoverable? Dozens. Hundreds. I always use the best, I'm vastly more
knowledgeable than most on the net, and I've still been screwed three
times in fifteen years.

Word may have its failings as an HTML editor, but you will never
discover them, Patrick. I made your template among other things to
steer you away from the lacunae in Word's adherence to the lowest
common denominator HMTL standard.

OK.

Well, maybe I could use a 40 foot pole rather than K's d.

The only spot of bother I had tonight was to try to
re-create the index page of mine in MSW, and I found whenI had a version
looking real good
and saved it and then re-opened it in IE and Firefox and in both the
text had gaps and things seemed all
badly spaced, so back to MSW where I found it impossible to easily set
the tabs and get the text
to auto return as I typed, and especially between where I have a small
picture on the right
and the left margin.

There should be a menu item you can select about how you want the text
to
behave, and be placed.

For obvious reasons I'm jumping in a bit 'late' here but it seems to
me things are getting needlessly complicated. The Mozilla Editor,
which I am assuming is the same as, or similar to, the one in
Seamonkey, may not be the cat's meow best in the world but it's
sufficient for your needs and slapping MSW into the equation just
makes things more confusing.

If I gather correctly, the original 'complaint' was with breaking at
the end of each line and that's easily solved in Mozilla (or any
other) by simply not typing a <return> at the end of them and nothing
else need be done to 'fix' that.

Just to add a bit of explanation, the viewing browser might have
different window sizes, fonts, etc, so the publisher can't know
'exactly' how things will look. The 'solution' is to let the viewing
browser do some on the fly formatting so, to that end, things are
organized as "paragraphs" and not 'lines', per see. Meaning you only
do a <return> to denote the end of a 'paragraph' and the viewing
browser will then word wrap to the viewer's window.

There are ways to prevent that if you want a 'fixed' size window, see
below.

I then opened it in Mozilla, which showed the same thing as IE and
Firefox
with considerable *** ups.
Then I corrected the thing in MOZ by wysiwyg method where basically
anything goes
about how you type it up and it still should appear the same when
browsed.
In MSW, while an image remained in the page, it just wouldn't let me
do what I could so easily in Mozzilla.
In Moz by selecting all I could see long lines of nothing and I deleted
these and finally
got no long lines where something was inducated on a text line but
nothing was,
and then saved that and re-opened it with IE and Firefox and it looked
just fine,
exactly as I had edited it.
Firefox then wouldn't get the page colour.
Hmm, very hard to set it. The color codes were a nine number letter
or a set of 6 letters and numbers, and I spent an hour fucking around
trying to reset the page colur so all browsers would include it.
MSW doesn't have a nice easy way to select page colours.
Plain white is too glary for me.

That's a problem with a lot of HTML editors and why I use a rather
innocuous 'cork' background image.


But when I used MSW to open the new version of the index page, the
picture
wasn't included. IE included it.

Crazy.

Next step is to cut and paste text into your template and delete
the 845 stuff and see how that goes.
I often do an enormous number of re-edits and cuts and pasts and deletes
when i work on a page. It doesn't happen easily for me.
I don't know how whatever setting you have in your template
will hold up after what i do.

Maybe it'd be better for me to have a template that's completely free of
anything,
say blank page, so all i have to do is open that from a file that's
saved,
but all the settings for text rules you have in the template are all
there.
Html seems to lurk where you don't see it and can act like a hidden hand
controlling what you type.

After working on the index, I realized there is some repetition and
awkwardness
about how I say what I actually do, and surfers can't quickly see where
to click for repairs, so I need to re-group the links to directories
under 4 big banners, Repairs, Manufacturing, Re-engineering and
Information.

I still don't know how to put an image into a page so it occupies half
the
width and text occupies the other half which is handy with small
images and schematics as one talks about them in the text.
I've forotten how I done it 3 years ago in Mozilla but I recall I spent
a lotta
time trying and its the only place on my site where i have text beside
an image.
Everywhere else the images are just stacked vertically with text.

That's 'html'. The 'picture' is 'on-the-same-line' with the text.

You can do the side-by-side by inserting a table, then put the picture
in one cell and the text in another. And since formatting is 'by cell'
the text will wrap inside it's cell and the picture can be
independently aligned inside it's cell.

As mentioned above, that's also a way to 'set' a 'fixed' size for
text, or a whole page. You could, for example, insert a 1 cell table,
which you can set the width of, and then type in the table. I do that
to make text 'fixed' at 800. I center format the 'whole table',
putting it in the middle of the page, so if the viewing browser's
window is larger you get a 'big border' but the text remains limited
to 800.

I'll get there. Maybe later rather than sooner....
I take so long to do things I am good doing things that take time.

Point taken about what you have below.

I once tried to use MS Front Page.
A guy said that'd be easy and he seemed to know how to drive it.
But after several tries i just abandoned this vehicle and walked
to Mozilla where driving things were far easier.

That's why I suggest you stick with Mozilla, You're already
comfortable with it and your 'problems' take little effort to solve.
Mainly, just don't type <return> at the end of each line, just when
you want to end a paragraph, and practice with inserting tables for
the 'new' thing you'd like to try (side by side text/pictures).

Not saying my home page is 'great' but it uses tables and, of course,
'paragraphs' so the lines word wrap.

http://flipperhome.dyndns.org/

The 'whole page' border is just the border of the one cell table I
made so the page is 'fixed' at a width of 800.

The "Recommended Browser" (eyeballs) joke is another table showing,
yes, you can put a table inside a table. The text and eyeballs are in
one cell and the eyeballs on 'on the same line' as the text. The
picture is in another cell. Oh, and another note. It's sometimes
convenient to put an 'extra' cell in between the ones you plan to put
things in so you can 'space' things to your liking. I.E. use the empty
cell for padding.

Note you see no border on the "Recommended Browser" table. You can
turn borders on and off, per table, as well as specify the line width
and type.

The 'multi line' paragraphs are simply typed with no <returns> and, on
that page, they don't 'change' with the window size because of the
fixed size table they're inside, however, if you go here

http://flipperhome.dyndns.org/13FD7%20Mini%20Williamson.htm

and scrunch your browser window way down, under 800, you'll see the
main title and picture 'title' texts center themselves in the window.
That's because I just center justified them on the raw page and did
not put them in tables so the viewing browser formats them to the
window center on the fly, while the 'big things' run off the page,
because they don't fit. Note the side by side filament supply picture
and text. That doesn't 'change' size, and neither does the text inside
it, when you mess with the browser window, because the table is a
fixed width.

Unless I missed one last time I edited, all my pages have the
'paragraph text' inside tables so they remain the same width but, like
those picture titles, the "HOME" button (center justified) and (c)
text (right justified) is page justified so they're always there.

Oops, I take that back. I didn't use tables on one of them.

http://flipperhome.dyndns.org/6AW8PCSpkr.htm

Scrunch the browser window way down and you'll see the text reformat
to it because that text is 'on the page' and not in a table. Note.
again, the speaker picture and side by side text in a table that
doesn't change.

The pictures are center justified on the page but look at the text
under the very bottom picture. If you make your browser real wide the
text keeps reformatting to the window while the picture, of course, is
fixed at 800, because that's it's size. That makes things look
'unorganized' with text extending beyond the picture, which is why I
put fixed size tables under the others but was apparently in a hurry
with that one and forgot. But it does illustrate 'on the fly'
formatting and why you don't want a <return> on each line, because
what *you* see as a 'line' may not 'fit' the viewer's window.

You should get used to the 'no <return> on a line' thing because
that's standard word processing, publishing, and HTML editing practice
since the processor can reformat 'as you type' and when you make
changes, etc. Same thing with this post. I have word wrap set to 70
and I type <return> only to end a paragraph so as I futz around with
mistakes, changes, and such, the text automatically rewraps 'to fit'.

I hope that helps.

Let's see if this line wrap setting works here. My Netscape wrap wasn't
turned on for outgoing messages but I just turned it on and a line is
over 72 things.

So just when I make a change to a wrap setting and click OK to stop
myself needing to hit enter at the end of a line, it fucking don't
work as I type it and I still have to keep hitting enter.
I don't know how to adjust Netscape to give auto return and
line wrap while I type.

I opend a copy of the MSW page template I have from Andre
and deleted all content so its a blank page but with
width settings intact.
Then I copied and pasted the index page content from a saved file
of last night's efforts and continued to work until it looked
just fine except the little photo I have at my index
showing a few of my things had to be put on a line of its own.
And I could not type between the picture and a margin.
If you put in an image, you shoud be able to put in anything else
in the empty page space each side of it including text without fucking
around
with tables and BS. OK, there may have to be a prompt or two.
No prompts though in MSW.
How dumb is this for a web page maker? Real Dumb, I reckon.

After getting it looking right, I saved this version as
'index2' in the 'my documents' folder.

Then I opened it with IE and Firefox.

In both browsers it appeared all fucked up with spacings
and lines and paragraphs way different to how I had it looking.

I just cannot handle anything else that
does not conform stricly to WYSIWYG.

If this rule is broken, the web page maker is useless to me.

So it looks like I will have to stay with Mozilla
but I don't quite know how to type to get automatically
returning text yet.

I have not got all year to become a fucking expert on html.

I do get 500 hits a day at my site,
and from all of these over the last 3 years since
I began using Mozilla I have not had one email
about any site dysfunctional
when someone browses it.

The other thing I really don't like about inserting images
and MSW is that the images become blurred and fucked up
when you paste them in.
You select the image after you have pasted it
and then adjust the image size.
But you never know how the size MS selected is the
quite the same as the original.
In Mozilla, if you copy and paste an image into a page you get
exactly that damn image, nothing is CHANGED without MY control.
MS changes the visual fidelity of the image.
I am interested in hi-fi, and like most ppl my eyes still work OK.

BTW, I looked at your two pages above, and the text looks fine,
even thought where text appears beside a schematic it is aligned
left beside the right side of the schema and sentences end
raggedly on the right hand side of the text body.
Looks OK to me.

And also BTW, if you have any tolerance of me,
allow me to say I like using terminal strips with
turrets or using hardwood 10mm x 8mm in section
with 4g brass screws placed each side of tube
sockets under the chassis. This allows many R&C components
to be better held in position and neater and wiring can be routed
more against the chassis bundled more and neater.
Then you find servicing is easier because less
gets in the way of a soldering iron.
And its easier to place components as you built the amp.
I'm just tiny bit against "rat's nest" wiring.

Compared to your site, I have much more text
and where to put the darn stuff is my bother.


Patrick Turner.
.