Re: The AES Repudiates SACD, DVD-A, and the high resolution audio myth

In article <tNOdnUxdervh47XanZ2dnUVZ_vqpnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"MiNe 109" <smcelroy2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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In article <t7WdnUDxYrY8w7XanZ2dnUVZ_j2dnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"MiNe 109" <smcelroy2@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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In article <ZO2dneTkp_Z4wbranZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
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In article <fOOdnaCaJr88h7ranZ2dnUVZ_uSgnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
"Arny Krueger" <arnyk@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"John Atkinson" <Stereophile_Editor@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
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On Oct 29, 10:12 am, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
In article <K5WdnZvleYYwfrjanZ2dnUVZ_rCtn...@xxxxxxxxxxx>,
"Arny Krueger" <ar...@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

The AES Repudiates SACD, DVD-A, and the high resolution audio
myth

Mr. Krueger appears to be confusing the Audio Engineering Society
with
the views of two authors of a specific paper.

John, the paper passes editorial review. That means something.

A lack of gross flaws.

Spoken like someone who has never submitted a technical paper to the
JAES
for review.

It can contain gross flaws?

Actually, yes at least once. The paper in question was authored by a
certain
Mr. Hamm.

So much for the AES.

Yeah, just like you Stephen to trash such a large, well-respected
professional organization over one misstep. Puts you into Phildo's class -
right where you seem to belong! :-(

2007 September, Volume 55 Number 9
Audibility of a CD-Standard A/D/A Loop Inserted into
High-Resolution
Audio
Playback: E. Brad Meyer and David R. Moran 775

I read this when it was published last month.I was particularly
interested
as it contradicted the conclusions of a paper presented at the
June
2007 AES Conference, to which I have referred before on r.a.o.

Journal papers always trump conference papers, because the former
are
formally reviewed, while just about any piece of crap can be
presented
as
a
conference paper.

What a disappointment to all those conference paper authors.

???????????

You have implicitly called all conference papers pieces of crap,

Only in your excluded-middle dreams, Stephen.

It's really a compliment to conference papers.

????????

You say "any piece of crap" but you really only meant one specific
paper. Doesn't that weaken your case?

and their authors will be sad someone of your reputation has belittled
their efforts.

Actually my statement "...just about any piece of crap can be presented
as a
conference paper..." is a paraphrase from a number of AES session
chairmen
of my acquaintance. Case in point would be a certain conference paper
that
was presented by a Stereophile employee.

The AES is looking less and less like an organization that can repudiate
anything.

Only in your excluded-middle dreams, Stephen. You and ****** make quite a
pair!

Troll on your own dime.

:-) In years past EBM organized blind listening tests at an AES
convention that found that listeners could not distinguish a CD
from a copy of that CD made on TDK cassette tape. I gues
that makes him a "cassette bigot": :-)

Irrelevant name-calling.

Interesting point about drawing conclusions from blind tests.

Shows your bigotry against blind tests, Stephen.

Bigotry, logic, take your pick.

Stephen, when Hi Fi is the topic, you and logic are sworn enemies.

Whereas cassette tapes indistinguishable from cds is "name-calling."

?????????

Try to stay on topic, Stephen.

It's on-topic when you say it, but not when I say it?

the author is waxing poetic and ignoring the relevant facts. There
really
aren't that many people who are still buying vinyl - its sales were
temporarily buoyed up by dance DJs who prized it for its ability to
be
scratched. However, digital scratching device that work with CDs
and
MP3s
are becoming popular, and its not clear how long this particular
genre
of
dance music will remain popular.

You missed the part about the increase including more genres than
just
dance music.

No, you missed the RIAA statistics showing that net sales of LPs
dropped
precipitously in the last reporting period.

You missed the part about RIAA not reporting all lp sales.

You missed the part about having other than umpty-dumpth-hand stories to
back that claim up.

Make that "Soundscan."

Make that "still no reliable evidence to support Vinylista paranoia about
industry statistics".

Soundscan doesn't report all sales. Reliable.

Sales of vinyl dropped down from 100% to around the 1% level for
several
years, and they have resumed dropping.

Except for where they are increasing.

Niche markets within niche markets need not apply.

What was that about disregarding stuff you don't like?

Just the facts, ma'am.

Thanks.

???????????//

Thanks for acknowledging the fact.

Another way of reading between the lines is that high-rez
releases
are
more likely to sound good.

The authors specifically state that to be the case.

But the reason has nothing to do with increased resolution.

Irrelevant to the consumer looking for the best sound.

What would be relevant to the consumer looking for the best sould
would
be
the disadvantage of a format that nonsensically requires a new disc
player.

Universal players go for under $200 these days.

You said that they are all egregiously-flaweed, didn't you?

No.

The point is Stephen is that the 90-ish dB dynamic range of the 563 isn't a
problem with just about *any* real world music recording, because they have
less than 75 dB dynamic range. While the DVD-A format has far better dynamic
range then SACD, it is all moot because as far as dynamic range goes, even
the CD format is overkill, and not by just a little. But, thanks for
demonstrating your ignorance of the practical limitations of real world
recording technology.

That's why it's fine as a home player. However, for testing the format's
limits, it's not SOTA.

The article does indeed lack detail. Checking that detail on the
BAS
site, I note that one of the hi-rez sources used, A Pioneer DVD
player, has, according to my own measurements, no more dynamic
range
that a CD player.

But, it was not the only hi-rez source that was used.

Good. Only one of the sources was fatally flawed for the purpose of
comparison.

Wrong.

They stopped using it.

So?

Because it was broken.

?????????

Keep reading

Of course, it's the bargain Pioneer I have at home!

Stephen, if it is fatally flawed why do you have it?

Mine doesn't have the decoding error found in the test unit and it
works
fine as a consumer dvd player.


Please document.

What, my dvd watching habits?

Do try to stay on topic Stephen. We were talking about "decoding errors".

Try reading the entire paragraph.

The 'explanations' page has what you want,
something about a left channel decoding error. I use mine with either
the digital output or the multichannel analog outputs with the digital
output disables so it's not certain I would encounter the problem.

What explanations page? Perchance you could wander on-topic long enough to
post a URL?

It's the same one you posted...twice.

The 563 was one of many players covered by a big Pioneer class-action
suit. Perhaps the test unit wasn't updated.

Can you document that?

Whether or not they updated the unit? Up to them.

As the rest, I imagine you could find something with a google search
including: Pioneer, dvd, player, lawsuit, settlement.

I hope the digital outputs were disabled.

I'm surprised that you admit to having such a POS in use, Stephen.

I like it for dvd and dvd-a. Not so good for cd, but I don't often play
cds on the tv system.

So then it isn't fatally flawed, no matter what you just said?

Fatally flawed for the purpose of demonstrating dynamic-range
superiority to good cd.

Well Stephen, finally you have made a properly-qualified claim, even if is
totally irrelevant to real world recordings of music.

De nada.

As a bargain-priced consumer product, not so much.

It's still got the bandwidth that people like ***** and ****** obsess over,
even if that is irrelevant to human beings listening to music.

Troll on your own dime.

I do have some new multichannel SACDs to listen to. Maybe the fatal
flaws will then present themselves.

Yup a true audiophile - always hoping to hear the flaws in the equipment,
forget about enjoying the music!

Like over-reacting to vinyl?

Thanks Stephen for owning up to the problem you have with over-reacting to
vinyl, as well.

Score!
.

Relevant Pages

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