Re: OT: A Debate that is Overdue

On Jul 10, 3:19 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In article <1184103952.765323.184...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,





ScottW <Scott...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jul 10, 2:30 pm, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In article <1184090400.910208.226...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

ScottW <Scott...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Jul 10, 10:41 am, MiNe 109 <smcelr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In article <1184087601.203447.40...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,

ScottW <Scott...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

<snip>

We need to separate the nutters like McVeigh and the abortion
bomber
of which there will always be a few acting as individuals
from the movement
within Islam which is far greater in numbers and support.

Islam is responsible for Islamic terrorists, but Christian
terrorists
are on their own? I don't buy it.

When polls show a significant percentage of Christians supporting
McVeigh you would have a point. But they don't so you don't.

Using your standards, one could say that Christians don't denounce
domestic terror by Christians with sufficient vigor. Think of how a
pipe-bomb at an abortion clinic barely makes the news.

Now Christians control the news? When did that happen?
In any case, I am not aware of any pipe bombings that did not
make the news.

It's that jumping conclusions thing again. First, I did not claim
Christians control the news.

No..you just blame them when something doesn't make
the news.

You're missing the point that Christian extremists get a relatively free
pass compared to your views of Islam and Islamic extremists.

For good reason. Christian extremists enjoy virtually no support among
the greater Christian community compared to the support
enjoyed by Islamic extremists among muslims.

Only for lack of comparable duress such as, say, a foreign occupation.

If you frame the questions correctly, you will find support for their
positions on abortion and religion in government and education at
greater levels than the 10% you cite for Islam.





Second, I said "barely" make the news. An
example is the recent pipebomb attempt in Austin. Didn't hear of it?
That's the point. The chorus of Christian denunciation should have
brought it to your attention.

Paul Ross Evans? He wasn't even claiming to be Christian from
what I can tell.

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/05/16/16evan...
type=rss&cxsvc=7&cxcat=52

"Evans is currently in federal custody without bond. He was previously
convicted of breaking into cars and robbing a convenience store and
fast-food restaurant with a pellet gun. Evans was paroled in 2005
after serving the first three years of a 15-year sentence.

Erik Vasys, a spokesperson for the FBI's San Antonio office, told the
AP that authorities are still trying to determine if Evans had strong
anti-abortion views. "

He also attempted suicide while in custody before trial. Some
Christian.

Fellow-traveler with right-wing anti-abortionist extremists. Imagine the
uproar if his religion and his target were different.

Imagine the uproar if he was one of thousands like him
instead of just a few.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence

You could also compare the coverage of the recent inept British terror
attempts to that of David Copeland, the "nail gunner," or those Alabama
dudes who wanted go defend the border freelance.

How significant are the groups these nutters represent?
Are there approximately 100 million people worldwide who support
the "nail gunner"?

That's the premise you should examine, the nature of the "support" you
claim for Islamic terrorists.

I think you should examine it. It is fairly well documented.

I have. There's a clear correlation with other social and political
problems.





A 'significant percentage' of Christians might share McVeigh's goals
and
ideals if those are separated from his methods in a poll.

So.

Wait for it. You're interrupting the point.

Likewise, you
might find that what you think is Islamic support for 'terrorism' is
really support for local autonomy or resentment of the US.

I know you want to blur the lines of method and motive
but they are clear. I don't care what the motive, terrorism
is not an acceptable method.

I have not called it an acceptable method, nor is more knowledge and
understanding "blurring". If anything, it's "focussing".

You, on the other hand, are attempting to set aside alternate
explanations that aren't as politically convenient for you.

I don't even consider this issue a political matter. I consider
it a social matter of dire consequences.

You should welcome a greater understanding.

If we accept your premise...that all these terrorist acts
are the result of defense of homeland....even when the acts
are perpetrated by citizens of our contries....
then layout the choices.
Do we bring all the troops and government representatives home
from any land any nutter who is willing to strap on a bomb
for?

That's one way to do it, one good enough for Reagan. Examining the
American "footprint" on the world is a good start to find political
solutions. Of course, the US has done so much to ruin its reputation
over the last few years that it may take decades to make up for it.


Is walking away from Iraq and allowing a genocidal civil
war or partition of the country a reputation enhancer or detracter?
I still believe modest success in Iraq will enhance US reputation
in the middle east and around the world while failure
will truly require the decades you mention, if ever.

ScottW

.

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