Re: Q. Does anyone have anything but LIES to say here?

On 22 Apr 2006 10:44:12 -0700, soundhaspriority@xxxxxxxxx wrote:


paul packer wrote:
On 21 Apr 2006 23:30:43 -0700, soundhaspriority@xxxxxxxxx wrote:

Headphones provide a sound I could never afford from speakers. To
duplicate the sound of well-chosen $300 headphones would require $5000
speakers. They require little driving, which removes the need for an
exotic amp. They remove room effects from the equation. They cause no
vibrations. They're easily housed and don't need careful placement.
They can be used at any hour of the day or night without disturbing
others. What's not to like?

They're not speakers, that's what. I don't care if you have a $20,000
pair of Sennheiser Orpheus. Headphones are another type of illusion
altogether, and one a lot farther removed from the reality of a musical
concert. The combination of sound interacting with the room can not
ever be duplicated by a pair of headphones. You can not, for example,
feel the pluck of a double bass in your body, with a pair of
headphones. The listening experience is entirely different, but again,
closer to the real thing. That said, I'm not putting off headphones,
they can be a 'pleasant' experience as well, but if they could
reproduce the excitement you get from people playing music in front of
you (and I only wish they could...), then more audiophiles would simply
do what you did, go without speakers.

See my comments to Arnie elsewhere.

Fair enough, but even with my stereo in untweaked state I'm not
ignorant of the phenomenum of getting totally caught up in the music
to the exclusion of all else. Nor do I listen to bass and treble, but
to how closely my system emulates the sound I recall from my last
visit to the Sydney Opera House.

I'm not discounting the fact that one's system needs to be tweaked with
Belt products or ideas to achieve a degree of musical realism that
involves the listener to a great deal. But I will say that in my not
insignificant amount of experience with audio, there isn't anything
else I've found that affects the type of changes Belt's concepts do.
It's basically an issue of all roads lead to Rome. But not necessarily
to the same -places- in Rome. A properly "Belted" system is one rich in
tonal colours and a certain vitality. It reminds me of the difference
between a really well tuned well designed spring suspended turntable
and just a good cd player. Both can sound musical, but in my
experience, only one sounds more effortlessly natural. (Hmmm.... do I
have to point out its the turntable?!)

I can dig that. I encountered a similar effect using a thick rubber
mat on my turntable (years ago) in place of the thin rubbish one. Or
damping the lid of a Sony CD65 player. 3D improved too.

Nope. Fella's only apparently satisfied for now, or when he made that
post. But thoughts will creep in, I'll guarantee it.

Don't be an arrogant jackass. You don't say "nope" when you have no way
of knowing about anything you're talking about, nor do you say "I'll
guarantee it", as though that's supposed to mean something? Am I to
expect money coming my way if you're wrong? You can barely speak for
yourself, so you ought not to be speaking for others. Me, I was just
telling you what he already said.

We all speak from our life's experience. We have nothing else to base
our judgement or opinions on.

That is not so. We DO have a choice as to whether we wish to delude
ourselves with ignorant lies or not. In the case that we're discussing
here, you're making assumptions for another person. But you don't know
that person. All you know, is that person told you otherwise, about
whether he's well and truly satisfied with his sound. All you have to
do to get out of this vicious cycle of ignorant lies is to keep
reminding yourself that YOUR experiences are not the experiences of
others. Again, you have a choice.

We all share certain characteristics. Men especially share the
characteristic of boundless curiousity. So in that sense I do know
Fella and the others. (Unless of course he's not really "Fella". :-))

I've been fiddling and tweaking since
the mid-60's. and I think I know something of how the mind works--the
male mind at least. No, you won't get money if I'm wrong, but then
you're not going to stick around to find out if I'm right or wrong,
are you? So it's easy to call me an arrogant jackass. I still say,
"Sooner or later...." ...but probably sooner.

Just like when I say that in 20-50 years, people will stop scoffing at
my tweaks, because knowledge about quantum mechanics/morphogenetic
resonance and the reality implied by this knowledge will grown and
finally trickle down to the masses, and gain wider acceptance in both
the scientific community, and the audio community. Of course, you'll be
dead by then, so too late for me to say "Told ya so!".

Why do I have doubts about this? Must be my ignorance.

Strawman exaggeration. Men will always tweak. I'm just advising
caution about getting into an area that appears to have no defined
limits. I know how many hours can be expended on, say, getting the
best out of a tonearm/cartridge combination--I invested years in
it--just one combination, and I've tried many. But there are finite
possibilities here and in most other tweaks. With the Belt-type tweaks
I see virtually unlimited possibilities, and I shudder.....

ALL areas have no defined limits. If you had any idea, I mean -any-
idea, just how sensitive audio components are, how many ways you can
change the sound of your system, **apart from all the Belt-type tweaks
that can be done**, you'd realize it's a much bigger ballgame than you
realized. Like I said Paul, it isn't up to the "tweaks" to provide the
limitations, its up to yourself. Just like it isn't RAO or the people
on it that "forces" people to stay here flaming each other every day
for 7, 8, 10 years at a stretch.

Truthfully, I don't think its just about acheiving great sound. I think
that audiophiles work on tweaking their system out of the enjoyment and
challenge it brings them, to see what sorts of changes effect what
sorts of results.

Exactly.

Don't discount the fact that this has value too.
People also work on their "hogs" or their vintage cars or train sets or
bicycles for the same reasons. You didnt just lose time adjusting your
tonearm for 10 years when you could have been satisfied with it in 20
min. You worked your brain and your body a little, and no doubt,
educated yourself in the process.

I got very frustrated, I know that. And dumped my turntable at the
first opportunity for a CD player.

I can't tell you how many useless and unmarketable skills I now have,
because I taught myself how to do something in this process of taking
on challenges. I am, for example, an expert spring suspended turntable
tuner. I can or can easily learn to tune to perfection any such record
deck. But of course, they're hardly sold any longer in hifi shops.

I wonder why, when they sound so good. (Rhetorical question)

Further gratuitous insult noted. I'm being honest.

But so am I when I say that if I write something beyond a couple of
lines, nine times out of ten it passes over the heads of everyone here.
It's a documented fact that people are getting dumber and dumber and
having a shorter and shorter attention span. But **especially**
Americans. Which makes it nearly impossible to have a serious
discussion about -anything-, on what used to be a fairly productive
discussion group but I see has degenerated into a steaming pile of
flaming garbage, non-stop 24/7, whereby most posts are "disposable",
filled with meaningless tripe. Look at the -entire- catalogue of
thousands of posts from George "Shovels" Middius over 8 years time, and
name me the one post that you don't think is disposable, that you
wouldn't throw out? There's no end of such examples.

This requires comment. There are thousands of posts. If every post was
as long as most of yours are, RAO would be a permanent occupation for
most posters. I absolutely agree that there's a general dumbing down;
by the same token people have less time and are generally
overstimulated by their environment. I myself have found myself
becoming more impatient, less willing to read long posts, or at least
to puzzle out the more intricately reasoned arguments. What's the
answer? Kill off TV, movies, video games? It's the current state of
play, and since you're talking about something that most posters don't
really grasp and probably aren't likely to (and I'm not even talking
about Arnie, Mike M. or Sullivan) then you can't really be surprised
that your posts aren't examined and replied to in detail and with
great intelligence. I personally think you're sincere in your beliefs,
but I also think you're asking too much to drop into an NG like RAO,
start preaching a whole new doctrine apparently derived from a
parallel universe and then berate posters for casting scorn. This is
the age of skepticism.

As for posts like George's, I agree George could have more to say
along more intelligent lines, but he's apparently decided RAO is more
fun as a playground than a lecture room, and I can understand that
too. But keep trying with your serious discussion. One day George
might just surprise you. (Then again, maybe not).

Take a look at some of your comments here. To be honest, they put me
in mind of the New testament, the bit where Jesus berates the
bystanders: "O ye perverse and faithless generation! How long must I
be with you? How long must I suffer you?"

Good one. Do you think he'd mind if I steal that bit? You know, I'm
always remembering the parables of the Good Book and thinking to myself
"What would Jesus do?". And whenever I do, I swear I hear his voice
talking to me. (It has a very angelic lilt, with a slight Italian
accent on the consonants, for some reason). Whenever I find myself at a
moral impasse on account of all the lies that people write about me
here, and I don't know how best to deal with that, I hear the voice of
Jesus saying.... "Lie back. If they deliberately offend you, insult
them. If they are not deliberately offending you, but offending you
nevertheless, insult them anyway. If they insult you, attack them. If
they nudge you with their elbows, kick them in the teeth. If they send
one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue".
("Hmmm... or was that a Scottish accent perhaps?"...).

In any accent, somehow this doesn't sound like Jesus. Did you ask for
proof of identity? It could be the opposition.

Funny that.

All prophets are bound to suffer the ignorance of fools <sigh>. Jesus
would have known what I'm talking about.... I've suffered the virtual
version of crucifixion at the hands of the non-believers who wish to
kill the messenger for the message of truth and peace that he brings to
the unwashed masses.... and I've the stigmata to prove it. But as
Jesus suffered for the sins of man, so too must Shippy suffer for the
sins of audiophiles.

I won't make the obvious comment about Messianic delusions. I'll just
assume you're feeling a little sorry for yourself and free thinking.

....I'm not a permanent fixture here, like you and the rest of the
Pitchfork Gang. Nor do I plan to be.

Well, I asked someone on RAO once before, "Are you going to Jerusalem
to be crucified?" It might even have been you.

Been there, done that.

And what was your three days in Hell like? I want a full account,
remember.

.

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