Re: The problem with 'borgs


George Middius wrote:
> ScottW said:
>
> >> I don't have a turntable or any vinyl. I never owned a high-end turntable.
> >> I switched to CDs as soon as the equipment got reliable and affordable.
>
> >I bought my first CD player.. a POS Hitachi... I still have it in my closet
> >of crap.
>
> Donate it to Goodwill and take the writeoff.

That would be .... 25 cent. It's gonna be an antique soon :).
>
> >> I've only ever owned dynamic speakers (cones). I do like planars but
> >> they're tricky to set up. I've heard some that were badly situated. So
> >> have you, I understand.
>
> > Planar magnetics like Maggies? I've never had the pleasure to hear 'em
> >properly set up IMO.
>
> I've heard several sets of Mags that were set up properly and several that
> weren't. It makes a big difference.
>
> >> But that's not what RAO is really about, is it?
>
> > Why not? ... that should be part of it.
>
> It can't be as long as Krooger is here, dumping his Kroo-turds on every
> opinion-based thread.

So ignore him if you don't like his POV. I sure don't read every
post from lots of posters. I don't kill file but I do a lot of
scanning authors and marking threads read if I suspect the usual.
My opinion..Arny isn't going to go away... so why make the Anti-arny
crusade
consume the group?

>
> >> Here's my primary view: Nothing
> >> about consumer audio is subject to "proof" or "tests". Those are standards
> >> for the laboratories and design shops.
>
> > No argument from me. I don't think many feel strongly otherwise.
>
> >> If you think something is overpriced or underperforming, don't buy it.
> >> Do you buy music you don't like? Did you buy a car you don't like?
>
> > yeah, for the wife :)
>
> Not to belabor a point, but can one assume that she likes it?

She likes the hood ornament :).

>
> >> Do you go around campaigning to shut down the manufacturers
> >> of cars you don't like?
>
> > No, nor audio equipment.
>
> Glad you said that. I'll remember it.

I still support truth in advertising. Remember that as well.

>
> >> There's something nutty about people who rage impotently about Stereophile
> >> and expensive cables and all the other flashpoints you folks have.
>
> > Why do you always insist on misrepresenting me?
> > I'm not campaigning to shut down anybody.
> > I've simply said I'd prefer DBTs in their reviews.
> > And I think some equipment is technically a bad joke.
>
> Have you really thought through the DBT issue? Seems to me the costs outweigh
> the benefits by a large ratio.

I think the costs are grossly overstated. I also think SP could with
a modest investment create an ABX system that would allow reviewers to
efficiently self test.

Now the benefits are unknown and possibly negative to their current
paradigm so with regard to the ratio.. you may be right. From my
selfish POV, I'd like to see if some of this megabuck stuff really
makes a difference or has certain aspects of audio reproduction
technology really reached audible limits.
Their subjective prose is unconvincing.


>
> >> Consumers don't do scientific testing because they are buying stuff
> >> for pleasure. Consumers don't need to "prove" what they heard
> >> really exists if they don't want to.
>
> > I don't think anyone disagrees. But Stereophile and manufacturers
> >aren't consumers.
>
> Stereophile is in effect a consumer because they approach equipment from the
> consumer's viewpoint.

I disagree. Their business is clearly manufacturer supported. So I
see them being more a manufacturers advertising outlet/rep than a
consumer rep.

> If you subscribe, aren't you glad that John does bench
> testing to check on the claimed specs?

Absolutely. And they spend a lot more money on that in gear and time
than I think DBTs would require.
>
>
> >> As an example, why do you think Stewrat Pinkerton is so antagonistic
> >> towards high-end audio? He had very similar experiences to John Atkinson.
> >> Both experimented with listening tests, and both came to the same
> >> conclusions. Yet Stewart is always proselytizing and being nasty about
> >> audio, while John has accepted the unresolved issues he's encountered.
> >> this Maybe you can explain divergence.
>
> > It's simple. They're not unresolved to Stuart. He knows some things sound
> >different but I think he knows why they do.
>
> Wrong.

How so?

>
> > John represents a publication that says some things sound different
> >but can't say why or show why
>
> If you mean "why" in engineering terms, I'd guess all of that is irrelevant to
> most consumers.

Maybe... but I don't have much respect for technical laziness. Those
are the folks who are susceptible and need a "nanny" as Art said to
guide them to
a decent system. Sometimes the nanny takes advantage.

>If you mean "why" in terms of the system setup, people read the
> reviews in order to get an idea of how a component can perform in the right
> system.

I don't get that out of most subjective reviews. But rarely is their
much in common with my system so I accept that.
>
> > or even prove that they do.
>
> Nobody can ever prove it will sound different to you.

True.. but the reviewers can certainly regain some lost credibility by
showing that it truly does sound different to them. There is value in
that.. for me.

> Besides, Stereophile is a
> subjective review magazine. Why are you so hostile to that idea?

Well.... because I think many times the reviewers are absolutely full
of BS in their eloquent praise of overpriced/undeperforming
equipment.... and they know it.
That just bugs me.

>
> >He caters to an elitist culture
>
> Say that again.
>
> > that has a bit of a chip that puts
> >more value on the ear than the equipment. You can hear it if you're
> >astute enough....
>
> You can read it that way if you want to. I choose not to.
>
> >He also perpetuates a belief in magic. That there is much to be learned
> >in the field of audio... Engineers don't like magic or the unknown.
> >Their job is to make things known.
> >And John makes a career to some degree off perpetuating some
> >of those beliefs.
>
> This is just you and your own prejudices.

Prejudices? Its my perception from reading the magazine. I let my
subscription lapse but I still pick one up from time to time and check
the archives often. I like the music discussions as much as anything
else.

> Most people people don't see "it
> sounds better but I don't know why" as an ascription to magic.

It's more than "I" don't know why. It's "nobody" knows why.

>
> >> The fact that you're so hostile to expensive audio gear prevents you from
> >> seeing how demented the hardcore 'borgs are.
>
> >WTF? Where have I expressed hostility to expensive gear?
>
> Let me dig through the archives. Oh wait, here it is:
>
> >He caters to an elitist culture

Money doesn't make an elitist. Elitism is a state of mind, not a
financial state.

>
> >I'd love to audition a setup of MBL 101s. I'd like some Sound Labs.
> >I'm not to hip on Arcam CD players because I got one that must be broke
> >according some. I drooled all over that Mitchell Gyro and Forsell Air
> >References that were on Audiogon last I looked. If I'm hostile to stuff .. it
> >isn't based on expense...its based on technology.
> >Power conditioners for example is just a bunch of crap IMO.
> >Interconnects should NOT have a SOUND with good equipment.
> >Power cords are a friggin joke. etc.
>
> So they should be taken off the market, right? Or at least have a mandatory
> label saying "UNPROVEN TO BENEFIT ANYONE EVER!", right?

Like I said.... I support truth in advertising. Some of these
products routinely try to dazzle with technobabble.

>
> >> What do They gain from blowing snot all
> >> over audio discussions among Normals?
>
> > Too subjective for me to interpret.
>
> Krooger.
>
> > Most of the "snot" is simple miscommunication IMO.
>
> That's a bizarre viewpoint.

Why? Ignore the insults and get to the root of the
conflict and what do we have? Often nothing.
>
> > On the flip side....
> > Why do some so called Normals hate engineers?
> > Without them... they'd have nothing.
> > and Why are some absolutely technophobic?
>
> I don't know what you mean by this. Who on RAO hates engineers?

You seem to. Most all I know of you give crap to in one form or
another.

Maybe hates is too strong though Sanders (not Sander) routinely
expressed his distaste for engineering to me.
A few others have said they found engineers arrogant while I find
them intimidated by their knowledge.

> Audio is a
> gadget-driven hobby, so how can aficionados be "technophobic"? That's
> contradictory.

It's not a fear to use... it a fear to understand.. or at least a
complete unwillingness. I don't mind that as long as they
stay within the bounds of their knowledge. We have enough bogus data to
wade through in life.
>
> >>Why do They care who buys what stuff and
> >> how much they pay for it?
>
> > They don't.
>
> They do indeed. Haven't you read any of Ferstler's prattle? How about Krooger's
> krapola? And Nousiane's drivel? They (and I do mean They) are fixated on how
> much stuff costs because They can't afford it.
>
> > They care about who is hawking it and for how much.
> > Big difference.
>
> So you don't care about the manufacturers but the merchants offend you?

Manufacturers, merchants and their advertising henchman.... all in the

same boat when it comes to overpriced, overhyped, underperforming, and
sometimes just plain fraudulent crap.

>
> >> Can't you see how irrational this behavior is?
>
> > What I see as irrational is your representation of their & my
> > (which may be different) position.
> > It's just wrong on so many levels.
>
> Glad you could put some distance between yourself and the 'borgs.

Never was a 'borg.

ScottW

.

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