Re: "New Amsterdam" - Old Hat

In article <13t3naqbq5ntj71@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Stop@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
says...
Hunter wrote:

The point is the artisian is supposedly dead. If he has the table
examined using dendrochronology, aka tree ring analysis, chances are they
will find that the wood is only a few years old. He will then assume that
it was NOT a Benoir original. It HAS to be antique to be a Benoir
original. After all, how can it be original if it was built with wood no
more than say five years old? He will assume he was defrauded.


I'm still trying to figure out how you think counting rings will give
the age of the desk. They buyer has no idea where the tree came from. He
has not seen the tree, not seen where or when it was cut down. The rings
are not stamped with the actual date.
---
No ofense but I guess you don't know anything about dendrochronology:

"At the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, paintings are examined in
a two-story studio with hugh lightboards for the study of X-rays.The
focus of research is the investigation of the working methods of the
masters and the restoration of old canvasses. But when one of the
museum's acquisitions, ''Man of Sorrows'' purportedly by an unknown
Flemish painter of the 15th century, was suspected of being a fake, the
focus shifted to sleuthing.

The science of dendrochronology, tree-ring dating, established that the
oak panel on which the paint was applied was from northern Europe in the
late 15th century. Examination of the paint and details of the body of
Christ by X-rays and under ultraviolet light showed that this was for the
most part authentic."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CEFDE1230F937A35752C1A9
61958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Again here is the real life example with dating a Stradivarius violin, a
violin made around 1682 ironically enough around John Amsterdam's time
when he should had died (he became immortal in 1642).

"There the story might have ended - the Messiah still hangs in the
Ashmolean - but for the sting in the tail. In the late 1990s a researcher
with doubts about the violin's authenticity sent photographs of its front
to a dendrochronologist. He measured widths of tree rings as they
occurred in the wood's grain, compared them to an established reference
series, and appeared to show that the relevant tree could not have been
cut down before 1738, one year after Stradivari's death. The implications
were enormous, and not just for the Messiah. If the most famous
Stradivarius in the world were fake, how could any attribution to
Stradivari be trusted? The labels in violins have been untrustworthy
since the days of Tarisio. Violins can only be attributed through
stylistic judgments, and it is the dealers who make them. The
certificates they issue carry the weight when it comes to a violin's
authenticity, and therefore value.

With their reputations at risk, violin dealers closed ranks. They
commissioned further dendrochronology that dated the Messiah's wood back
to 1682, but there was controversy over the methodology. A scandal seemed
about to break. All subsequent work, however, has verified the 1682 date.
Moreover, there is a good cross-match between the wood in the Messiah and
that in other Strads. Everything about the violin is consistent with its
label, "Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis Faciebat Anno 1716"."

http://www.fritz-reuter.com/articles/guardian/messiah/lordofthestrings-
messiahstrad.htm

The passage that gets to the heart of the matter is:

"He measured widths of tree rings as they occurred in the wood's grain,
compared them to an established reference series, and appeared to show
that the relevant tree could not have been cut down before 1738, one year
after Stradivari's death."

In order to make that determination you have to know the age of the tree
at the time of its death, i.e. its felling, don't you?

In the episode, if desk wood test to say 2006-or even just a date just
past the time the creator supposed to have disappeared-then as far as the
buyer is concerned it is a fake Benior because as far as he is concerned
the maker was long dead. He cannot possibly be still alive churning out
desk. Just like if the wood of a violin that claims to be a Stradivarius
is proven to be from 1800, 62 years after Stradivari's death it is
obvious that the violin is a fake-unless Stradivari is an immortal. Want
to sell the idea to collectors that Stadivari is an immortal?

And where exactly is the buyer going to find a complete cross section
where he can count the rings in the first place.
----
As noted in the example above, he can go to a dendrochronologist who
would have reference samples of wood from various eras including the
late 19th century. You don't have to know and have the EXACT trees the
object was made from, only that it is wood from the time period and/or
area the desk would have had to been made.

Again, WE know it is a geniune work from the artisan even if the wood is
new, but HE, the buyer, doesn't because he doesn't know that the creator
is still alive after 400 years let alone about 140 assuming "Benior" was
born in 1867, making him 30 in 1897.

As I said before, this could make a good subplot of an episode.

Oh, and the pieces authenticity can also be determened in part by the
fasteners used, so hopefully Amsterdam has some vintage late 19th century
nails on hand, assuming he used nails.
--
----->Hunter

"No man in the wrong can stand up against
a fellow that's in the right and keeps on acomin'."

-----William J. McDonald
Captain, Texas Rangers from 1891 to 1907
.

Relevant Pages

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  • Re: "New Amsterdam" - Old Hat
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