Re: You know

Jesse Jones wrote:

> What a wonderful, evocative phrase - "spiritual fuel." You could
> define it, and contain it, and put it in a box, but once you do that it
> looses its power, doesn't it?
>
No. Why should it?

> If one's emotions are constrained by one's mind life is dull indeed.

Again, I am not advocating emotional repression as you seem to think.
Spock is *not* the model. I'm not advocating reason *versus*
emotion. I'm advocating reason *and* emotion - in their proper
relationship.

> But you did not say "constrain," of course, you said "in harmony,"
> another delightful artistic expression that says more than a scientist
> of human behavior could say.

I also could have said that a sense of spirituality can come from one's
mind and one's emotions not being in conflict. A "scientist of human
behavior" is incapable of saying this? Are you not aware that a
sizable portion of human beings go through life incredibly conflicted
between what their minds tells them and what their emotions tell them,
and that many seek out psychoanalysis ("a scientist of human behavior")
to try to resolve those conflicts?

> > example of an "insight beyond reason" so I know precisely what you mean
> > by it.
>
> Oh, I don't want to be precise - precision is a tool of scientists.

And in my book, the mark of a great artist is the precision with which
the artist expresses him/herself, but who makes it look easy and
effortless. Think Fred Astaire, for one.

> Every great lyric has insight beyond reason, it seems to me.
>
"Words make you think a thought. Music makes you feel a feeling. A song
makes you feel a thought." - E. Y. Harburg

> >> Some people can see nothing that cannot be measured in a test tube.
> >>Poets and saints see more.

I don't know that they see more, but a lot of them are certainly more
pretentious and self-serving about it.

"If you're anxious for to shine in the high aesthetic line
as a man of culture rare,
You must get up all the germs of the transcendental terms,
and plant them ev'rywhere.
You must lie upon the daisies and discourse in novel phrases
of your complicated state of mind,
The meaning doesn't matter if it's only idle chatter
of a transcendental kind.
And ev'ry one will say,
As you walk your mystic way,
'If this young man expresses himself in terms too deep for me,
Why, what a very singularly deep young man
this deep young man must be!'"
-- W. S. Gilbert

> > Once you've started down the road of "insights beyond reason," then
> > where do you draw the line?
>
> Now we're descending to cliches, but still they convey something beyond
> scientific formulas, don't they?
>
Yes, suicide bombers who have "insights beyond reason" definitely
do convey something beyond scientific formulas - and it's not
pretty. They take your idea of something beyond reason and run with
it, with suicidal and murderous results.

> >> > Of course it's reasonable to stop and smell the roses from time
> to time
> >>
> >> I suspect Dr. Spock would disagree.
>
> My lack of Trekie credentials was exposed - I should have said "Mr. Spock"!
>
I didn't even notice the mistake, probably because I'm no big fan
of STAR TREK myself, though my partner has made me sit through just
about every episode. Aliens are attacking the space ship...Zzzzzzzz

> > Didn't Spock *suppress* his emotions? I'm not advocating that. It's
> > not either/or. I'm for a full emotional life that is in harmony with
> > one's mind.
>
> Can you dare to imagine emotions that transcend the mind?

I have no reason to believe in causeless emotions, if that's what you
mean by "transcend the mind" - though I can't say exactly what
you mean by it - and due to your aversion to being precise, I suppose
you'll never tell.

> > "Yes! That works. Keep that!" If you were the actor and the director
> > told you to keep something you thought was wrong, and if you questioned
> > him/her about the choice, and the answer was "I can't tell you why it's
> > the right choice. It may look like the wrong choice to you, but all I
> > can say is that I just have an insight beyond reason about it," would
> > you find that admirable?
>
> Oh, yes, yes, yes!
>
Are you serious?

> If artistic creation is about logic then computers will soon replace
> creative humans. They do it better.

I think you misunderstand again. Artistic creation is *not* "about
logic," though logic does come into play. There is everything wrong
with an actor who can sit quietly and talk rationally and logically
about how his character feels this or that, and what his character's
motivation is, etc., and then gets up and dispassionately and flatly
recites his lines. That's intellectualizing, it's bad acting,
it's one's mind cut off from one's emotions, non-integrated --
and that's not what I'm talking about. Artistic creation involves
an interaction between the conscious and the subconscious mind, and
sometimes the conscious mind can get in the way of the functioning of
the subconscious. To allow the subconscious to work properly is not
something beyond reason. It has to do with acknowledging the actual
nature of the subconscious and letting it do its thing. I think of
what John Lennon said about writing "Across the Universe." He had
struggled for days and days trying to write a lyric for it, and kept
finding himself blocked. Then he finally gave up one day and just went
to sleep, and then all of a sudden it came to him. Was this something
from "beyond" providing him with the lyric, or had he been filling
up his subconscious all the time he was struggling, and then when he
rested and finally allowed his conscious mind to get out of the way,
his subconscious was able to do its work and he came up with a lyric?
I say it was the latter.

> > that's not to say there are insights that can be gained outside of
> > reason. A sense of life is not an insight.
>
> Well, if a "sense of life" does not fit that category, I demand more
> categories! Because I dare say we ALL want a "sense of life"!

I don't get what you're saying here. When I say "sense of
life," I mean, for instance, that a show like "Kiss Me, Kate"
might give you a fun, joyous sense of life, while something like
"Sweeney Todd" gives you a menacing and/or tragic sense of life.

> > "There are only two means by which men can deal with one another: guns
> > or logic. Force or persuasion. Those who know that they cannot win by
> > means of logic, have always resorted to guns." - Ayn Rand
> >
> So it comes down to Ayn Rand? I will pass.

Suit yourself.
>
> This is not a stealth sermon. My subject is not religion but art. Art
> transcends human reason. If it does not, what good is it?

Like I said, spiritual fuel.

.

Relevant Pages