Re: RAH and Light speed was Re: Awesum mind powerz!!!

: Gerry Quinn <gerryq@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
: So "einsteinean physics" really is special relativity? I thought we'd
: never get there.

And you had problems understanding what einsteinian physics was?
Do you now know what I mean by newtonian physics, or do you need
another name for that, too? How about newtonian relativity, do you
know what I mean by that, or do I have to state it again?

: Your argument above has a flaw: to be classically coherent, a theory
: must be compatible with these principles in EVERY aspect.

How is that a flaw? Einsteinan relativity IS compatible with the
principles you have stated in every aspect.

: So, back to the two particles isolated in space. Can we develop a
: physical model compatible with relativity that cannot be shown to be
: inconsistent with regard to one or more of these principles?

Yes. It's been done by both Gene and myself; in my case, what I provided
was a specific illustrative metaphor.

: When we look at the physical entities of the model (the events and the
: spacetime, say) can we show where all the physical properties of the
: system exist in a local form?

Yes. I've already done that in at least two posts.
The mathematics Gene points at demonstrates it clearly and rigorously.

: Can we do it without proposing that events actually do after all have
: a position in spacetime?

Why does there need not to be a position in spacetime?
Events in both einsteinian and newtonian physics occur at specific,
objective "positions" in spacetime. They simply have no objective
coordinates. This is something which your correspondents have been
attempting, with little success, to bring to your attention. So,
I suggest that this time, you pause for a moment and let it sink in
before you go on.

You have been (naict) laboring under a severe misunderstanding.
This is why people have been saying to you that "relativity is not Machian".

: The answer is no, and therefore relativity, at least if the principle
: of relativity is interpreted as covering all physics, is inconsistent
: with classical realism.

How does the principle of relativity imply that events have no unique
position in spacetime? Hint: it does not. A point several people have
been attempting to convey to you for some time. It merely states that
this unique position is related to all the others only *relatively*,
and as it turns out, this can be locally; the global relationships can be
obtained transitively. What it hasn't got is absolute origin or prefered
orientation (which, since this is spacetime, includes no preferred state
of motion).

Note that the rules governing spacetime are stated sans coordinates.
So, clearly, they cannot violate the principle of relativity. Transform
the coordinates all you want, and the rules governing spacetime remain
the same.

Or put it this way. The fact that each point in spacetime has a unique
*identity* does not mean it needs unique *coordinates*. If you think
each point in spacetime must have a local, physical, manifestation of
its identity, rather than an implicit one, then fine; let it be so.
This manifestation, however, does not need to consist of spacetime
coordinates. Nothing requires that it be so; certainly nothing in your
list of items-required-for-classical-ness requires that it be so.


Wayne Throop throopw@xxxxxxxxx http://sheol.org/throopw
.

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