Re: Pure Time Travel Stories?

Nancy Lebovitz <nancyl@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> Nancy Lebovitz <nancyl@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>>>> Rivers don't happen to be always along the convenient course
>>>> of travel.
>>
>>> For ordinary humans at a wide range of tech levels, the river
>>> *is* a convenient course of travel.
>>
>> Never mind that there could be a reason that rivers and oceans
>> are an inconvenience, whether the cities are there or not is
>> irrelevant. They are where they are, and the story decides that.
>> There's no point in getting all worked up about some minor,
>> irrelevant detail. It's not what the story is about; it's about
>> stupid humans caught up in a stupid plot. I doubt the logistics,
>> rivers, trade or anything will be even mentioned if it isn't
>> part of one of the plots. And I doubt a reader would sit back
>> and think "Hey, this city isn't at a river/ocean, that's not
>> useful.".

> Some readers do care about that sort of thing, but I don't think
> it's especially common.

Do they care enough to notice when caught up in a story? That's really
the point that makes it a moot issue.

Something done grossly wrong, like for example electrons being described
as wandering from the + pole to the - pole, stands out to anyone who
knows that that's not what happens. Something that isn't even mentioned,
for example just using electricity, can't draw much attention. Perhaps
even because all the other things get in the way, like plot and
atmosphere.

The more 'technical' details you put in, the more errors can sneak in.
(And that, while I don't particularly care about such details.) The
thing is to stay vague enough to not insert errors, while appearing
otherwise, and concentrate on the interesting things. (The actual
story.)

With characters on the other hand, there's no 'this can't be possible',
no matter how weird the motivations are. At best you could say 'this is
stupid behaviour/thinking'. So they paint the picture, the rest is just
backround. Backround with no tedious infodumping on commerce, for
example, can't be done wrong. (That's not even touching "In the story it
works that way, obviously." A lot of yelling about 'That's wrong' is
actually falsely done because people can't let go of their assumptions.)

>> I know where at least one city is set, and it happens to be at
>> an ocean, but it is where it is for an entirely different
>> reason.

> What's the reason?

It is prone to earthquakes.

The how and why is tied in with other things, at present existing as
vague ideas. I need to get there to get the details. Otherwise I'd just
make stuff up, guessing, and that has the tendency to turn out quite off
to what it actually turns out to be. (Like the folk that I first thought
to be the bad guys in that Fantasy story turned out to be the first
victims of the bad guys.)

>> Incidentally, do you know where I can find maps (world-wide, on
>> the level of city map scales)?
>>
>> I couldn't even find a useful one for Hannover. (To get from
>> here to a tool shop, the location of which I did find on the
>> internet, at least.)

> No idea, but there are people whose google skills are much better
> than mine. If you don't get an answer here, you might start
> another thread for research info.

Hah, no. That won't get anything useful. I'd like to know how to improve
those skills, though.

>> So what else must be done (so I can find a reason that it's
>> different)? We got two things already, just because people
>> insist on something irrelevant to the story be considered.

> Just for the record, the rational world-building thing can get
> compulsively fascinating, but I don't think it's the most
> important aspect of sf.

It's also an aspect alien to me. World-building doesn't work that way
for me, it builds itself inside the story. I need to see it to know
what's going on. I have some backround data for the Fantasy story in a
separate file (for convenient access), but the real thing is buried
inside the story, reasons, executions, results, and all.

<snip>

> That's called a delta in English, too. Was your point that deltas
> don't tell you anything about which planet you're on?

Yes.

>>> I think details of evolution could be useful, too.
>>
>> How? (Curious.)

> If you've got Neanderthals and such, then the detailed prehistory
> of humanity would be the same as it is on earth. This would be a
> way of indicating that it's here + magic rather than some
> ill-defined place with humans and magic plopped into it.

The idea of adding such details isn't very appealing, though. It goes
way past the actual story.

[<http://www.focusing.org/tae-intro.html>]

>> For soemthing about speech, it's amazingly unclear on what on
>> earth it's going on about. I think whoever wrote it is floating
>> around in a soap bubble. The word to describe the text is
>> 'foggy, unclear, rambling'.

> The idea is that if you pay meticulous attention to your feelings
> and put them into words, you can find something new. If you do
> that, then you're likely to come up with new feelings which are
> also worth putting into words.

Feelings as in emotions? Or 'vibes'?

Where's the purpose of putting that into words? And there's no
difficulty in saying "I think you're just saying what I want to hear."
(Something that sometimes happens with an aquaintance of me. I don't
think he believes what he's saying, and just says what sounds
reasonable.)

There should be some use in projecting/receiving moods, but so far the
presence of people interferes with that, and I don't get a kick out of
manipulating people, so there's not much point - apart from evaluating
them.

>>> It sounds as though you'll have room for a satirical protrayal
>>> of education if you want to do that.
>>
>> Doesn't sound very appealing. And I'd have to research
>> education. (Where's the satire?)

> If only a moderate proportion can do the sort of creative
> thinking required for magic, there will probably be efforts to
> get more people up to that level.

I doubt it. No more than here (and the effect of that is not apparent).
We are still dealing with humans, after all, and they tend to just plod
through their own lifes, without any 'where do I come from, where do I
go'. Those that break out of that already have the required thinking...

> It might look like conventional education. It might look like new age
> poking around. Or (in the spirit of "things are different") they might
> try to use magic to get more people to be magicians.

Do people use technology to get more people that are engineers?
Technology could make things a lot easier, you could automize pretty
much everything, with a few enthusiasts maintaining the machinery, and
everyone would be happy with a life without anyone needing to work.

Somehow, that isn't happening. I doubt it'd happen if you substitute it
with magic.

Magic isn't going to change the humans (remember, they still have the
same genes), just the parameters around them. You'll get the same
proportions of dumb masses, enthusiasts, entertainers, inventors, greedy
sods, career junkies, power hungry 'politicians',...

> Since you think people are fools and the novel is largely about
> foolish people, their educational system will probably look
> pretty silly.

No sillier than what you find here. And there should be different
cultures, not all one global melange, too.

>> Just because you don't conjure your sandwiches doesn't mean the
>> society would be 'here with magic'.

> True, but if people aren't conjuring their food, where is it
> coming from? One possibility is that magicians gain status by how
> many ordinary people they can support.

Subvert. Not support.

They aren't all about being good. Not that you won't find a few
idealists (Green-peace analogues? Just a thought.), but mainly people
are concerned with keeping their own bum well padded. Oh, you've got of
course the sturdy farmer who believes in his work, and the one who just
continues on to put food onto the table, and all other types.

But if you want sensible people, that's the wrong story.

And the question of where it comes from is rarely adressed in stories. I
doubt a reader would notice the lack of infodumping on where the ham,
bread, lettuce and all else comes from. Unless it's a cook book on how
to make the best sandwich.

I'd object to such infodumping, because I don't care. If it becomes part
of the plot, it will explain itself consistently, if not, no one will
lose a tear for it not being mentioned.

Where did Jason Wood's chicken come from? (Digital Knight) Was it even
mentioned, does anyone remember? Does Seawasp even know?

And what you're asking here is that - before writing the story - he
should have considered and worked out just that, or at least dug up the
real life logistics for where it'd come from in the neighbourhood Jason
Wood is living.

But as it is, there's no reason to do that. It isn't relevant to the
story.

Actually, there are werewolves and vampires and other stuff in the
story. That should have massively influenced the economy, evolution and
cultures. Yet it seems to look just like our world. Going by what people
demand here, that's bad worldbuilding. (The least it'd need is an
explanation on why the world is like that _because_ of the werewolves
and vampires and other stuff. Something I had in mind for the vampire
story.)

Something that is missing - at least in the books I've read - is any
explanation on how the Minds in the Culture are anything but programmed
machines, and instead some thinking creatures. That, just being stated
'as is', isn't believable, and lacking backround support it falls flat
as unbelievable. They play a big role in the books, and thus need a
coherent history. Yet, without it, lots of people seem to like the
books.

Conclusion: Even if you fail badly on the backround, your book will be
liked as long as it is a good story.

And a story this idea is supposed to end up as. If ever executed. Aimed
at the readers that like such stuff, but without getting unpleasant to
write. (Not that it'll ever be published.)

>>> On the other hand, I've heard of a tribe where people traded
>>> big rocks-- they never moved the rocks, but everyone knew where
>>> they were.
>>
>> What for?

> So they could keep track of who owed what to who.

But the rocks themselves aren't worth anything.

>>> Maybe people could trade shares of rare magical items.
>>
>> Yes, that's part of the 'services' I mentioned earlier.
>>
>> Actually, there could be a magical item that's considered
>> valuable enough to be used as currency. (Turned up when a
>> character insisted on at least making a note of a scene, before
>> I forget it, before I went to bed.) It's unclear whether the
>> effect is real or only believed, but it could work.

> One item, or a lot of similar items?

A lot of similar items. A currency that's just one item on the entire
world doesn't make for everyone carrying around some to buy stuff.

--
Tina
No good internet access. ('Cause there is none.)
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