Re: Can a Limited Utopia Exist?

IsaacKuo <mechdan@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Oct 19, 5:48 pm, Michael Ash <m...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
IsaacKuo <mech...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Admittedly this was five years ago, but during my senior year of college I
was living on around $1,000/month and I was living pretty well. I scrimped
and saved in places, of course, and lived in a single rented room, but I
was able to have decent food and still have enough money left over to fly
to Europe a couple of times.

The article mentions that after rent ($500, I certainly wouldn't expect
her to spend less than that, I was spending $300 for what was no doubt
much
worse) she's broke after "food, gas, and other expenses".

Cost of living varies by a lot from place to place. The fact
that you were able to even find a place for $300 a month
tells me you were living in a city with a lower cost of
living.

I rather doubt it. Milwaukee's East Side is not known for being terribly
cheap. $300 got me a bedroom in the house of a person who was more
concerned about helping students and adding some life to her house than
she was about making money. I don't think our little old lady is living in
such circumstances.

The difference can easily be a factor of two.
Energy costs related to air conditioning or heating can be a
huge part of this.

This is a part where age certainly makes a difference. As a 20-something
student, air conditioning was the first to go to save cash. (Most of the
places I lived in didn't even have it in the first place.) Heating was
quite murderous in the one place which had electric heat though. Someone
who's 85 probably needs these things more.

In my experience, one of the biggest drags on a little old
lady's budget can be keeping a crummy car up and running.
It's a cliche that used car dealers and auto repair shops
are more likely to take advantage of little old ladies, of
course, but the cliche is true. This isn't a regular expense,
of course, but with a $300 repair here and a $500 repair
there, it can easily add up to an average of one or more
hundreds of dollar per month.

I know, you say "sell the car". But most little old ladies
I know aren't healthy and strong enough to walk
everywhere. An 85 year old? No. You're talking
about someone giving up their freedom and
independence at that point.

Everyone's freedom and independence is limited to some extent, especially
an 85-year-old lady in unknown health. I could quite literally walk out
the door this minute and tomorrow find myself halfway to Mexico and some
unknown and totally unplanned adventure. I won't do it because it'll cost
too much, but I could. I doubt she could.

Yeah, it'll suck to give up her car. But this is a *choice* she's making.
She has decided that her freedom and independence is more important than
eating well. This does *not* mean that she is unable to feed herself on
$1,400/month, as the article claims. It means that she is unable to feed
herself *and* have all of the amenities she thinks are more important than
food. Can she make such a choice? Certainly. Should she? Who knows. Can I
think that she's wrong to do it? you bet.

A smaller effect, but still significant since it all adds up,
is that things cost significantly more in the last five years.
At least here in Baton Rouge, it's rather noticeable across
the board.

Yes, it's called inflation, and it hasn't been anywhere near 40% total
over the past five years.

What "other expenses", exactly? Well, medical care no doubt costs a *lot*
more than it does for a healthy 23-year-old, but on the other hand her
pension hopefully includes some form of insurance, and there's a lot of
government aid for older people's health care.

She's not on a pension, she's on social security. And
government aid doesn't pay for prescriptions.

"She gets $1,400 a month in pension and Social Security from her days in
the garment industry."

Who knows if her pension covers prescriptions, though.

But how much do you want to
bet that this number includes cable TV or other amenities?

I'd bet against it.

When we were economizing, the first thing to go was cable TV.
I find that people in older generations aren't as into cable TV,
except for Fox News addicts. Even then, it's just basic
cable plus whatever minimum package includes Fox News.

And then the word "gas" is a real head-scratcher. I'm assuming this refers
to the liquid stuff you buy at the station, not the gaseous stuff that
comes into the house by pipe. If you're so short on cash that you're
damaging your nutrition, *sell the car*. Those things eat money like
crazy.

So, you already have an excellent theory on where the
extra money is going, and you instead accuse her of
paying for luxuries? That's a real head-scratcher, to me.

What do you mean by my "excellent theory" here? I can't really figure out
what you're criticizing.

In any case, the article clearly states that her budget covers rent,
"food, gas, and other expenses." The gas is an obvious luxury. The other
expenses certainly might include luxuries. If she's like any of the other
people I know, she probably buys unnecessary things to some extent even if
she can't really afford them. I don't have a Grand Unified Theory of Why
Dominica Hoffman can't afford to buy squash, I'm just suggesting that it
may be due to one or more of several reasons.

(Yes, I do have one now, I'm not some sort of anti-car nut, I just
realize how much they cost.) Even if public transport isn't an option, how
often do you really have to go out if you're retired?

How can you even ask that?

I don't know any little old ladies who could feel any
semblance of freedom and independence without
a car (except for my relatives in Japan). Expensive
it may be, but the alternative is to be trapped and
depend on someone else to drive you around. Even
if some public transportation is available, it means
walking significant distances except in the most
densely populated cities (which is why I have an
exception for my relatives in Japan).

Do taxis count as "depend on someoen else to drive you around"? I mean it
technically is that, but since you can get them on demand I don't think
they really count. The cash saved by ditching the car should pay for a
decent amount of taxi use and have enough left over to buy vegetables.

There are some things which the soul needs for
nourishment. Freedom and independence aren't
just luxuries, they are human necessities. People
can die from depression, brought on by a feeling
of helplessness and uselessness. Depression
affects the immune system, and the will to live.
I've seen people just give up, let go, and die.

I must completely disagree. I'm as big a fan as anyone of freedom and
independence but it is extremely sky-is-blue obvious that they are not
human necessities, as evidenced by the extremely large number of people
who have lived entire lives without ever having either.

Remember, the question here is whether really poor people in the US are
so badly off that they cannot afford decent nutrition. I believe that this
particular case study has merely established the case of someone who *does
not wish to be able to* afford decent nutrition, because affording it
would mean too much sacrifice in other areas. That's her choice to make,
and I would not dream to criticize, but it's not proof that this income is
insufficient for a proper diet.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Can a Limited Utopia Exist?
    ... was living on around $1,000/month and I was living pretty well. ... Cost of living varies by a lot from place to place. ... lady's budget can be keeping a crummy car up and running. ... independence at that point. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.science)
  • Re: Stitched up by a talivan
    ... freedom and independence a car gives you, you too might be glad that ... using your logic we would take the oldest/slowest worst braking car (lowest ...
    (uk.rec.driving)
  • Re: {{ OT }} Oprahs on ...
    ... hoping but now that I've hit 50, it's just not worth it anymore. ... day I was talking to a woman, and she asks me why I don't buy a new car. ... And pay for it in the next life, ... the next life instead of living hedonistically in this life used to be ...
    (alt.autos.toyota)
  • Re: P&T Magazine
    ... Most programming is not very high-tech these days. ... Our standard of living continues to increase, ... Telephones, cell phones, a car, and everything else I need ... People blow off the fact that manufacturing in the ...
    (alt.smokers.pipes)
  • Re: local food cost question
    ... > the US don't make a living wage unless they're properly tipped. ... > cuts down on city noise. ... >> having the expense of a car which is the norm ... >> in the US would seem to indicate a lower standard ...
    (rec.food.cooking)
Loading