Re: A possible arguement against unschooling (was Re: When even a Republican can see it....)

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 01:51:18 GMT, Mark Atwood <me@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

Joyce Reynolds-Ward <jrw@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
On Thu, 21 Jun 2007 22:28:02 GMT, Mark Atwood <me@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

David Friedman <ddfr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

I'm a little puzzled. Are you arguing that by unschooling my kids I
maintain their class privilege? That only makes sense if unschooling
works better than conventional schooling, which would seem to be an
argument for doing more of it--as I suggest.

Exactly. Given the appropriate parents (including parents with the
ability and desire to monitor and guide the unschooling), it can work,
especially with motivated students.

So what's your objection to it?

When it is presented as the *only*, or even the *ideal* method, I'm
gonna object.

My experience was different from yours. Different district, probably
different age group, different set of teachers (and different
parents). Bright student, but heavier in the language arts area than
in the math area. Without public schooling, I'd have not done as much
as I did in math--the one math class that has clicked for me was a
preparatory math class I had to take for my ed classes in college,
using manipulatives. I'm one of those who would have benefited from
the Connected Math curriculum, because it was designed for a brain
like mine.

But math taught the way I learned it--well, part of that probably had
to do with the football coach who taught it.

My child--bright kid, but needed the socialization and, later, the
technical exposure he got at his high school. Would not have read
literature on his own; everything clicked for him in several of his
English classes and he still talks happily about the books he read and
the thoughts he picked up in those classes. But does he read lit on
his own? Heck, no, not as far as I know. Tech books and nonfiction,
especially nonfiction related to computers--yeah.

Unschooling would have produced reams of holes in his knowledge set.

But--unlike what I see both you
and David advocating, it's not going to work for all. You both are
products of highly educated families with a certain amount of interest
and dedication toward guiding the offspring in a desired direction
without forcing it upon them, so you see the positive side of
it--perhaps a bit more positively than most would.

Did I say everyone should be unschooled? Did David? Did *anyone* here?

Yes. You and David both have advocated that this is an ideal method,
repeatedly and fervently, while condemning current methodology. You
two may not have *explicitly* said so, using those exact words, but
David in particular very strongly advocates such a schooling process.

Now, if that's *not* what the two of you meant, then neither of you
have admitted to such a concept. Rather, it's been pretty blanket
condemnation of the current system, especially from you. I've yet to
hear much in the way of positives about it from you.

By implication--yes, you (and to some extent David) have suggested
that everyone should be unschooled.


That's not the case for every situation.

Turn that around and look at it.

Can you admit that classrooms & lecture type education is not the case
for every situation? That there are many kids for whom such is a
disservice and a waste?

Can you? I wait...

Wanna gamble?

You owe me a drink if you're at Orycon this year, then.

Classrooms--you need to define the type of classrooms. Is an
automotive technology classroom the same as a social studies class
taught by lecture? What about a Life Skills class which goes out into
the community to learn how to ride buses, identify important signs,
and go grocery shopping? What about a social studies class taught by
running projects as opposed to lecture methods?

Lecture-type education is something which is growing less common, at
least at the lower levels. And even lecture-type education is
supplemented by group work, project work, hands-on learning projects,
and other products of differentiated instruction.

Not all students are auditory learners. Many students benefit from
visual instruction or visual supports to auditory. Many benefit from
hands-on or experiential instruction. You might be surprised at the
degree to which public schools are trying to address these issues--as
opposed to some of their private counterparts--even with NCLB issues
and the idiotic assumption that all students are automatically on a
college track.

My favorite rant against No Child Left Behind is that it assumes that
all students are headed for college. There is absolutely no place at
this time in the Federal plan for those kids who would benefit from
technical and vocational education. It's a crime that we have lost
the programs in technology that were in middle schools and junior
highs when I was a kid--because I wouldn't be losing some of the kids
I am now if they had something like that to motivate them to learn
(read the motorcylce repair manual, use math to design a skateboard
jump, and etc).

But--you need space, equipment, and supplies. Plus whopping huge
insurance coverage to make it work.

Alternative classrooms can and do exist in the public schools, Mark.
Unfortunately, they're also attacked by those who see them as watering
down the learning process because they aren't sitting on their behinds
in a classroom being droned at. Here's a hint: the attackers are not
from the left of center, either.


Which is not an arguement against unschooling, just an argument
against mandating it across the board for everyone. But the people
we're arguing against seem utterly blind to the fact that we are not
advocating mandation, just more available choice...

Huh. Doesn't sound like it from some of the universal statements
being made.

Like what?

By who?

You and David, among others.


What I am in favor of "mandating" is that the government, and most
especially not the folks with degrees in Education, don't get to
mandate styles of education.

The problem, Mark, is that the folks with degrees in Education are not
the ones on the school boards.

Nor are they the ones in elected office passing down unfunded mandates
for the local public schools to meet.

The *problem* has more to do with people with notions but who know
that they dislike people with degrees in Education and how they think,
run the school boards, the state legislatures, and the Congress. They
trot out their pet people with the Ed degrees to support their
particular rhetoric, but there's damned few people in the seats that
have the real power to shape instruction who have degrees in ed.

School boards don't select for it. State legislatures don't select
for it. Congress doesn't select for it. But they're the ones with
the money, the power, and the ability to fund the research, the
programs, and, essentially, force a style of teaching upon a teacher.

I see a lot of empty lip service to "different kids learn
differently", and to "diversity of cultures", and such. But when the
rubber meets the road, you want to be the mandator and controller of
what actually gets done...

Go look in a local special ed classroom. Then tell me that.

jrw
.

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