Re: Spider's Heinlein novel [was: Re: ConCarolinas 2006 is coming!]

James A. Donald:
Webster's dictionary definition of socialism:
: : 1 : any of various economic and political
: : theories advocating collective or
: : governmental ownership and administration of
: : the means of production and distribution of
: : goods
: :
: : 2 a : a system of society or group living in
: : which there is no private property b : a
: : system or condition of society in which the
: : means of production are owned and controlled
: : by the state

Bill Patterson wrote:
There seems to be a problem with these dictionary
definitions. Even a hasty read-through of Noyes
_History of American Socialisms_ reveals many systems
tha don't have a "state"

The dictionary refers to "collective" ownership: the
classic example being Owen's socialism. But because
Owen's socialism did have collective ownership, they
still needed a single will to decide upon that single
plan.Since they did not have a state to impose a single
will with gulags, killing fields, and torture chambers,
they debated all day, (when they were not goofing off)
and never decided anything, with the result that nothing
got done. Veterans of the nineteen sixties may recall
similar outcomes.

(Hey, one of them was Josiah Warren, the anarchist)

The spanish syndicalists thought themselves anarchists,
and thought themselves socialists, but found, when push
came to shove, they needed a state to impose a socialist
economic plan on people and force them to work for
socialism at gunpoint, with the result, as the
Stalinists pointed out, that their anarchism swiftly
developed a striking resemblance to the Stalinists
"state withering away" anarchism.

There does seem to be always some kind of centralized
planning organization, but the Fourierist theory
allows for them to be local rather than national in
character (and those of all the experimental colonies
were necessarily local rather than national),

And all the experimental colonies collapsed with problems
similar to Owenism, or, like the Pilgrims, found
themselves compelled to apply increasing harsh measures,
which in the end turned out to be unacceptably harsh,
yet still insufficiently harsh to obtain the desired
result.

Noyes' own characterization was rather poetic in
nature: he says the aim of socialism is to bring the
sense of "home" life to the workplace, rather than
brining workplace regimentation into home life, as
industrialization seemed to be doing.

The problem is that we don't really care much for
strangers, and if we did care we would not know what was
best for them. The home tends to be somewhat oppressive
in large families, and the larger the family, the more
oppressive.

--
----------------------
We have the right to defend ourselves and our property, because
of the kind of animals that we are. True law derives from this
right, not from the arbitrary power of the omnipotent state.

http://www.jim.com/ James A. Donald
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Rightards obsessing over Weiners weenie rather than deal with the facts
    ... And, yes, I know what socialism is. ... Ownership is irrelevant, control is what is at the core. ... Secondly, there is no "community as a whole", as someone will always disagree with the means of production and distribution. ... Communism focuses more on the idea of 'communal ownership', but that ownership isn't the core. ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Yall might want to listen to this but...
    ... Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are ... Socialism:: any of various economic and political theories advocating ... collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Helping Dudu- Again
    ... government controls all means of production. ... Central to the meaning of socialism is common ownership. ... Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Go away Klaus
    ... Socialism is an economic system in which the means of production are ... Socialism:: any of various economic and political theories advocating ... collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means ...
    (talk.politics.guns)
  • Re: Rightards obsessing over Weiners weenie rather than deal with the facts
    ... And, yes, I know what socialism is. ... Which is one reason why democracy sucks. ... Ownership is irrelevant; control is what ... of a society to communism, ...
    (talk.politics.guns)