Re: Scientific assumptions [was: Help needed with expletives

On May 14, 8:20 pm, zebo...@xxxxxxxxx (Zeborah) wrote:
Nicky <nicky.matth...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On May 14, 2:17 pm, zebo...@xxxxxxxxx (Zeborah) wrote:
Nicky <nicky.matth...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well no. I object to people putting women down as much as the next
woman, but
I don't think unquestioning acceptance of anything is a good thing.
'Don't ever say anything which someone might be able to misinterpret
along these lines.' does rather limit things. It is extremely easy to
label people a racist, a homophobe, a sexist particularly in an
environment in which people regard those things as evil.
( It cuts much less ice when they don't and that is the real problem.)

Yet a-bloody-gain, no-one has labelled Jonathan sexist. Not a single
person. The words have not been said. The words have been denied. You
are creating a strawman.

I am not. You seem to be saying that you mustn't use words which may
be interpreted in a certain way or you will be thought sexist. I think
that is attempting to restrict what non sexist people may talk about
or to prescribe the way gender relations must be discussed. I think
you have to

(sic)

I'm saying (repeatedly) that *if* you want to avoid people thinking
you're sexist, *then* here are some words/topics that you might be best
to avoid.

Freedom of speech is a good thing. Freedom of choice, within the bounds
of the law, is also a good thing. But to be free to choose, one must
know the consequences of one's actions. Specifically:

* to be free to choose whether or not one appears sexist, one must know
what things will make one look sexist;

* to be free to choose whether or not to silence women, one must know
what things tend to silence women.

Jonathan said he was unaware of these things. Therefore I gave him the
information. Before he had the information, he was unable to freely
choose whether or not to (accidentally) appear sexist, whether or not to
(accidentally) silence women. Now that he has the information, he can
freely choose the course he prefers.

I am giving Jonathan knowledge. I'm not controlling him; I'm giving him
the ability to control himself. He may use the ability or not as he
chooses. I am giving him that freedom which he didn't have before.

I do not see how this could possibly be objectionable.

<snip from tiredness>

Things have moved on since the 70s. Then, it was victory enough for a
woman to have equal rights. Now we're struggling to get equal
privileges. This is subtler, and it's easier to be unaware of the
problem; for years I was convinced we in NZ had a really equal society.
I wanted to keep believing it, too. But the little subtle things
started slowly adding up until I couldn't believe it anymore. New
Zealand is not equal for men and women, and nor is the internet.

I have reason to doubt the UK is any better.

I don't know. I imagine it varies. It is a great deal better in my
personal experience, but I am not living the same life as I was then
and I am wearing a somewhat different face and body.

Yes, it certainly is a great deal better than it was in the 70s; as I
said, things have moved on. But there's still a way to go.

Quite a lot of activities that used to be difficult are no longer
difficult; garage mechanics, builders, used car salesmen are still
predominantly male but no longer look around for a male to deal with
or treat me in a particularly patronising manner
Utilities etc do not demand to speak to my husband. Publishing is
largely female dominated as is the library service. When I deal with
booksellers and teachers it is
perhaps fifty fiftymale /female and I get much the same response from
each. I do not think I would significantly different treatment if I
were a man with similar sales figures.

Same in New Zealand. I'm talking about subtler things.

And I suspect that you may be fighting the last battle. I know nothing
about NZ but in UK the big one is social exclusion which, in typical
UK fashion, cuts across racial/sexual divides: it is an issue of what
once might have been called class. There are a whole load of people
whose life chances are significantly reduced because of
poverty/poor parenting/poor diet/lack of education/opportunity. It is
connected to the the low status parenting has in our community and it
is related to racism as
different racial groups are affected differently, but if you care
about justice and equality in the UK that is the area of greatest
difficulty. TBH if you were in the UK I'd say you were barking up the
wrong tree. Our biggest problems do not derive from any view about
female inferiority but from a failure to create a society in which
everyone has a stake. I don't know about NZ or Aqua's part of the US.

I'm a pragmatist I believe in focusing on the big stuff. If you can
get a good education in UK as a woman your chances are good. I'm less
certain about what happens if you are black or asian but my guess is a
good education will trump other things ( I have no experience of this
and racism is a bigger problem than sexism unless you are a woman in
some minority communities in which case you get a double whammy.)
However there are huge barriers to getting a good enough education and
to me that is a huge injustice and more significant than the existence
of a few reactionary male idiots. YMMV

The people we need to engage are those who think feminism is itself
misguided, those who don't believe women ( and certain classes of men)
can achieve anything and we do that by helping those women achieve.
I'm not sure we gain very much that is useful by branding all and
sundry 'sexist'; it seems intellectually lazy to me.

Nicky
.

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