Re: Putting a scene into words.

Helen Hall <usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes
Helen Hall <usenet@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I used to think that too, but I did a couple of writing
courses (poetry and play writing) and for that we had to do
exercises. Although I didn't use the words I wrote, I did
feel that they contributed to my writing improving, so they
weren't actually wasted.

That's you. For me, writing more isn't improving anything.
I've already written over a million words, and it's not
getting better.

By "better" do you mean it's not getting any easier or that
the prose isn't any different in quality?

Both. And it's getting more difficult, if anything.

In my view any sentence could be written differently,
either slightly differently or radically differently. The
tone or atmosphere could be changed by doing so, even if
the actual event remains unchanged.

I've already, repeatedly, said that that's 'what', not
'how'.

I'm not describing plot-events, I'm describing a scene,
which includes viewpoint, atmosphere, location.

Talking about changing any of that isn't talking about my
problem, it's talking about what to write in the first
place. And I know what I want to write.

Well, it's not quite as clear cut as that.

It is for me.

There's nothing wrong with other people doing things
differently, but to adress this, what I do matters, else nothing
that's said considers the actual problem. You do see that, don't
you?

It's like talking about house-designs, when I already know what
house I want to build, and wonder about what bricks to use.
Naturally there's only a limited set of bricks suitable for this
particular house, but instead of knowing all 10 brands, I only
know three, and no idea how to learn about the remaining seven.

Actually, I'm not sure whether I know three or nine, or all ten.
Often I just don't remember some particular known kind of brick.
And in some corners I'm not sure whether they don't stick out
oddly. (With some I can see it, with others it looks fine and I
don't know whether it is.)

(The analogy is also valid in the process of adding to it. I
start at the bottom, not knowing what the rest of the house will
look like, only knowing that the bottom row has to be <this>.
Wondering how it may fit with the rest is not relevant to me.
Whether you agree with that process or not, it's what I do, and
know is right for me.)

We had this discussion here a while ago about how much the
"story" exists independently of the words. There were some
people at the "The story is what happens and it doesn't matter
what words we use to describe events. It's the same story
regardless of POV or structure" end of the spectrum whilst
others were at the "Change one word and it's not quite the
story it was!" end.

I'm more the latter. The only difference is that I need the
right words, and once they're there, they say what I want to
say. Finding the right words is the problem. (The whole story is
just the result, what it looks like in the end. Messing with
that beyond proofreading is a bad idea.)

For instance, if we have the following basic action:

Sir Gawain entered the room, went over to the bench by the
window and sat down.

We could rewrite that in a variety of ways, in each case,
choosing a more precise word to replace the generic "entered"
and "went" and "room". In the process, we'll make subtle
changes to what happens.

As long as it says the same; what I'm _seeing_ is the guy coming
in and going over to the bench at the window and sitting down.
And there's one way that is most pleasing to read (for someone
who likes the style I like). There are plenty ways to make that
horrible to read (for someone who likes the style I like), and a
number of ways of not quite getting it right.

There are also ways to say something else. (The examples you
give below.)

Sir Gawain ambled into the bedchamber, made his way over to
the bench by the window and flopped down. (Here he's being
very casual. The flopped down suggests that it might be very
hot, perhaps.)

You're already adding things; the bedchamber. (I don't know why
flopping down would suggest hot.)

And once you've setled onto him ambling, then storming describes
something else. It's not the same thing happening.

Sir Gawain stormed into the armoury, strode over to the bench
by the window and flung himself down. (Here he's obviously
agitated.)

Now it's an armoury, you'll have to settle on what it is, and
then stick with it, before trying to find the words. :)

Sir Gawain tiptoed into the boudoir, crept over to the bench
by the window and perched on it. (Here he's being careful,
perhaps even timid.)

And so on and so forth. Is this any nearer to what you need?

It's still talking about what to put there; what room it is, how
he walks. I already know all that.

Here's a similarly simple sentence:

----
When Ragna felt that they had observed enough, she stepped to
the side, leading the tracker to the end of the counter and
around it, then through the doorway on her side of it.
----

That's what happens, no frills, no bells.

I think it's a little awkward. I'd like to improve the bit
before the first comma, and after the last comma, and wonder
about the words in between.

But this is what happens, no frills, no bells. She knows that
they (her guests) have seen enough (of the tracker, to get more
familiar with what they know little about, to lessen the (reason
for) fear - all that is adressed before that, also probably not
in an ideal way) and she takes him (still holding his hand) to
what's on the other side of the doorway. (Where it's even more
difficult to find the right words because it's getting surreal.
Non-3D-environment. Well, that's not right, either, it's just
not stuck to a shape as we know things.)

Another example; do you know a word for something like a
tentacle that isn't a tentacle in the normal sense? (It's
slimmer, and can be expanded and retracted.) Trying to look
something up for that (or extension) didn't yield anything, so
I'm going to use 'extension' for now.

If you want to help, it would be better to stick to the
problem

If I could grasp exactly what the problem was, I might be
able to stick to it. You keep saying you want to write things
better, to have better words available, yet you won't follow
any of the suggestions that will put more words into your
brain.

I haven't seen many fitting suggestions yet.

Reading new stuff is plausible, but won't work (that's a fact,
not unwillingness, just like I'm not going to run a marathon).

The idea to analyze text in books where I like the style got
lost.

Words get into your brain by reading them or hearing
them. I know of no other way -- and believe me, if there was
another way I'd like to know it because I'm trying to improve
my Welsh at the moment! If you don't like reading stories
that aren't to your taste, what about listening to books on
CD?

That's still stories that aren't to my taste. It's the content
that I don't like, even if it were written in a way I like.

And listening is more difficult than reading; I'll just fade out
after a while (even wanting to listen), will have to re-wind...
(That's easier with written things.)

(You should see me watching TV - I tape stuff to watch later,
and often rewind, too, because I missed what was said.)

rather than proclaiming your view and talking about that.
That's got nothing to do with what I'd like to learn to do
better, after all.

There's one perfect way of writing what I want to say
(including the style I want).

For a while I had a little sign on my computer that read,
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." If you seek to make
the sentences perfect,

Not aiming for perfect will just get me 'no good'. Do it right,
or don't do it at all, is my motto.

then I don't think you'll ever be satisfied.

I can really do without such inappropriate judgements. That's
for me to decide, not for you to dismiss.

In my view there isn't, there are better ways and worse
ways but no way is perfect. If I get down an approximation
in the first draft, then I can amend it in later drafts. If
you're trying to get it perfect right from the start you're
setting yourself an almost impossible target. (IMHO)

Great, now we get to people telling me I have to do drafts,

Where did I say you have to do drafts?

You talk about yourself doing drafts, and then state that if _I_
try to get it perfect from the start (as in 'not working the way
you do'), I'm doing it the wrong way (as you see that as an
impossible target, and thus not worth doing).

You're discarding the only way I can write as not worth
considering, because you don't think it's possible.

That's no position to consider possible suggestions from, that's
telling me plain out that I should write like you do, and screw
your funny nine and sixty ways.

You asked for help, we're trying to explain what works for us.

Which isn't how I work, so that's not even touching the subject.

Very very few writers try to get it perfect first time.

What's that got to do with anything? It's not upon you to decide
how I work, or to dismiss my way as not worth doing for me. If
you don't have anything else to say than 'your way is crap, no
one does that', why are you saying anything at all?

even though I've already mentioned that if I don't have
better words now, I _won't_ _have_ _them_ _later_ either.

I don't see how this follows. Why can't you get better words
later?

Because if I don't have them now, I won't have them later
either.

You might learn more words between writing the first draft

Would you please just stop telling me that I should write the
way you do? _That Doesn't Work!_

What's so hard to get about other people not working the same
way you do? Whatever happened to nine and sixty ways?

and rereading it some days later.

I didn't learn more words between 1 million words ago and now.

(At least folks like you are no longer able to tell me that, of
course once I've written more, it'll work out just fine. I've
written more, and it isn't. Trying to correct things afterwards
is making things more _difficult_, not easier. It's not how I
write.)

At its simplest, I might make a typo. When I revise, I
correct the typo and the prose is then better than it was
before.

That's something else entirely. I'm not talking about
proofreading (or whatever the word is for correcting typos and
chucking out the occasional double 'the' that sneaked in when I
wasn't looking). And I can't write the way you do, with
revisions.

I might have written something like: He walked slowly along
the beach. On revising I might decide that "strolled" is more
precisely what he did than "walked slowly".

And I put in something like 'might pass for a reception desk at
an inn' in some version, thought it might be wrong due to some
comment, but now that I found out why it's that, put it back.
I'd just like a better word for 'inn', one that fits the
character. But I think it being slightly off might be in
character.

And that's how what words there are influences what comes later.

All it does is make you think you were trying to help,
while you did no such thing, while all you did is trying to
push your way, telling me how to write. Your way ruins
stories and isn't going to let me find better words.

So how *do* you write? What happens exactly? Do you see the
scene as a movie in your head?

Yes. Except I also know what's going on in one or more heads.
And if there's any atmosphere, I know that, too.

Do you hear someone dictating words?

No. I'm trying to come up with the words.

Everyone writes differently. Most people are interested in how
others work because sometimes it gives an idea about how to do
something differently,

If people like you weren't insisting that I had to do it your
way, I might be interested, but as it is I'm not getting an
opportunity to develope an interest, I'm left to point out that
that's not how I work. Else my way just gets drowned out, people
like you pushing it away, maintaining that I should do it your
way and everything is fine. Which isn't exactly endearing me to
anything you do.

You're leaving out viewpoint and atmosphere, which is part
of the events. Screw plot. I'm not writing plot, not even
'story' in that sense, a story is just what comes out at the
other end afterwards. What I write is characters and
setting, what the characters do at any one given time. None
of it is deliberate, thought out in advance. It's written as
I see it, and the more I write, the more I see.

We're obviously dividing the story elements up differently.
To me the same event can be told in different ways depending
on viewpoint so evnts and viewpoints are independent.

That's you. Since you're refusing to even accept my way as a
valid, equally right possibility, I don't really care what you
do. (I only give as much as I get.)

Also to me atmosphere isn't part of the event, it's part of
setting.

It's part of the setting, but it's present in the scene.

Readers don't come into this.

But if you don't intend to have readers, even if that reader
is only yourself at a later date, why are you writing it down
at all?

Who said I'm not going to read it later?

I see a scene, would like to put it into appropriate words,
saying what I mean, and be able to spot where it doesn't. If
I can do that, and find better words, then no one else is
involved.

And this seems to say that only you will know whether it's
better or not, so asking for help is somewhat pointless.

Did you miss the 'if'?

But so far I don't know whether I spot everything that's
wrong, and don't know how to write better than I do
('better' relating entirely to the kind of style I would
want to read). That's what I want to learn, improve.

Again, only you know the kind of style you like to read. From
what you've said above about not wanting the words to come
between you and the story, you want to write so called
"invisible" prose, which I generally find rather dull these
days.

And here we have the customary dismissal of "I don't care about
what you want to write, so screw you and your problem."

How 'helpful'.

--
Tina
WIP: [Untitled]: 899 words
WISuspension: Magic Earth series
Posted to Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition.

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