Re: Rambling: the info (+ experiment on reader reaction)

On Dec 10, 6:37 pm, Tina_H...@xxxxxxxxxxx (Tina Hall) wrote:
ShellyS <shell...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tina_H...@xxxxxxxxxxx (Tina Hall) wrote:

(snip)

You might say that them visibly being not humans is like a great big
blinking light heralding 'different', but all too often it's just
humans in rubber suits, and with people being used to that I
wouldn't be surprised to find they expect it, or at least don't
think that heralds 'different thinking'. A ridged forehead or
pointed ears don't make an alien. To me it's irritating that their
behaviour and thoughts, their reasoning, are something you can find
right here, being just one variety of human reasoning. So mine do
have other motivations.
True, but it can signal "alien," so it's a step. The things they
notice or don't, the way they speak and move, the things that concern
them or don't, are others.

That's all things _I_ see them doing, but might be pointed out as missed
by someone else. Say someone looks at an object, but doesn't find it
very important to describe it, a reader might say that it should be
described.


That's unavoidable. Out of 5 beta readers, 4 didn't notice or care
about something and one of them actually liked it, while the 5th
thought it was a problem, and I think reader 5 might be right. Or not.
I have to decide. The goal is to have more people notice and get the
point than not. What really got me is that one of the first readers
(of the not finished first draft that I ended up trashing most of it)
liked that I didn't overly describe things and left a lot to the
reader's imagination. She hated a lot of description. Of the first
full draft, a couple of readers also liked how I described things. And
yet for another (that 5th one again), I didn't describe enough and he
really wanted more character descriptions. I rarely describe
characters because I suck at it and because the personality matters to
me more and because I hate having it sound forced. So I'm looking for
more ways to natural add some more of that in, but I'm not going
overboard with it.

Until most of the people who read it have a problem with something, I
wouldn't worry about that something. And even then, I'd have to decide
if it really makes sense to me to add or adjust something.

Aliens might recognize someone's scent before their appearance, for
instance, or not bother with the human amenities such as, "Hi, how are
you doing?" as generic greetings, and so on.

Noticing the scent is active, the lack of greeting passive. (Is the best
way I can describe the feeling.) I'm worried about the passive things
being missed (by a hypothetical reader), and then the active things
objected to (because they don't match 'human' expectations).

The lack of greeting might be passive, but it is noticeable if you
have characters always come together and get into serious discussions
without even a Hello. And if someone misses that as alien behavior
even if you've been consistent with it, it's likely their lack of
concentration or they simply miss stuff like that. Some readers read
for the action. I used to skim or skip descriptions of more than a
line or two, when I was a kid, which helped me read a lot more than I
do now. Now, I want to give the writer's every word my full attention
because that's what I'd want from a reader.

And if they do miss stuff, but they enjoy the story anyway, it might
not matter that they didn't get that the characters weren't human.

I feel as if it could all fall apart if the set of human expectations
isn't chucked out first.


Is the story so tied to them not being human? Or is the story a good
story regardless? I think you're worrying about something without
sufficient evidence for worry. There will always be readers who miss
stuff.

(snip)

To keep with that a moment, I just started reading The Stolen Child
by Keith Donohue. I loved the first line: "Don't call me a fairy."
But the lines that follow aren't as intriguing, yet the story is, so
I'm still reading. But that first line had set me up t think the
narrator had some serious issues about his nature, yet he was merely
arguing semantics, and that not all faerie types were the same and
shouldn't be lumped together. He prefers hobgoblin. So, not where I
thought things were going, but still, interesting.

I see what you mean.

I'm glad it came up at a good time. ;)

(snip)


So, once I knew they generally liked the story and characters, I could
handle what they didn't think worked or didn't work well a lot better.

:) I think I bring in enough liking-of-characters for 5 people. I just
am not sure whether they're portrayed correctly, whether it works. (So
to someone saying "He should do <that>.", I'd ask "How could I get
across that <this> is the right thing?" or similar.)

Those are the comments I mostly ignore. There might be another problem
which is prompting the comment, so if other people find the same spot
problematic, I'll take a good look at it. I much prefer comments along
the lines of:
Why is he doing that?
Why is he not doing this?
Something feels missing here.

Comments like that are more helpful in getting me to see a possible
problem. As soon as someone says what they'd do or what should be
written, I tune it out. I had to learn to do that.


[*] Here's one example from the S&E (pretty early on, perhaps 10k
words in). What do you think?

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
[...]

Looking at the Priest, and how he stood as far away as possible from
Gorash's second mate while still being part of the little group, he
gave a short laugh. "Relax, I'm not going to eat you just because
you're male and talk to my mate in her present state. I'm not a
drake."
The first line was a bit hard for me to read. Maybe too wordy or the
structure is off. But I love the dialogue. I'm intrigued as to why
he'd say that.

Perhaps it's lack of context, but quoting the rest just to get this bit
right would be a bit much (it's a bit long). They're talking after
Gorash explained his plan to the first families that arrived, the others
leaving and just him standing there with his two mates and a son. Tashen
approaches, notices that Kevra is in heat (as a Priest he can smell it
earlier). They talk about that (and what to do about it, as it's
inconvenient), and then Gorash notices the above, realizing why Tashen
stands so far away from Kevra.


I just had a hard time with the sentence structure. I use sentence
fragments and such, but I had to read it a couple of times. No biggie.

Is he joking or is it a cultural thing?

It's a cultural thing. Male drakes would eat any male approaching their
mate when she's in heat. The Fire tribe's reaction is described below,
and the Fire tribe is where Tashen was born and grew up (known by this
time).


Charming. ;) Okay, I don't need to know that right off, but I'm
curious for my own reasons as stated, so I'll read on and then the
cultural details should get clearer as more info appears.

"Or of the Fire tribe." Tashen suggested, now also smiling.

"Or of the Fire tribe." Gorash agreed. Their hot tempers had them
overreact to any male that even just talked to their mates when they
were in heat. It explained why the young Magic Priest hadn't visited
the last time Kevra had been in season, though.

"A male of the Fire tribe wouldn't really eat you for that, would
he?" Kevra looked from Tashen to Gorash and back.
Is Kevra nervous of the thought it might be true? I'd like some
reaction here.

No. She's mostly curious and estranged; it's strange tales about funny
other tribes, most peculiar but nothing to worry over.

I'll see what I can do about adding that, thanks.

Cool. It'll put more texture and context in there, which gets to some
more of your cultural bits. If she's horrified or nervous, that says
something different than curiosity.

"Well, probably not, but it doesn't matter what happens to you once
you're dead, does it?" Tashen replied.

"Raving avalance!" she exclaimed. "If people are tearing up other
people, the least they could do is eat them, to get some good out of
it."

"Come on, Ma," Lanar said, hooking one arm beneath one of Kevra's
and Sanar's each, "let's find something more to your liking, before
you give further sound advice."

Telling her that a death by magic left the catch, or person in this
case, uneatable was truly not a wise idea. Breeders had no interest
in 'Lords' stuff', and tended to turn anything they were told upside
down.

Grinning, she let herself be led away.

[...]
Well, I certainly wouldn't think they're humans, or if they were,
they were likely part of some lost tribes or on a planet other than
Earth.

Nice.

But the question was mainly whether you'd object to the behaviour. :)

No. I don't object to pretty much anything in what I read, unless it's
there gratuitously (torture for torture's sake, porn). If I'm reading
SF or fantasy, I am expecting things to not be like my normal life and
that anything can and likely will happen in the story. Their behavior
here is clearly something they're all comfortable with, so that's
their norm.

(And while we're at it; I inserted the "Telling her that a death..."
paragraph to sneak in the information about magic, and the info about
Breeders' comments not to be taken seriously. Before there was just the
"Grinning, she...", and I wonder whether it shouldn't come first.)

hmmm.... I kinda like it where it is. More fun coming after.

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Would you even wait to (much later) learn that no one actually gets
killed, because the Fire Breeders wisely stay at home during that
time, by their own choice? Or would you get as far as the following
(still within the first third of the first book)...
With just this much info to this point, I'd be unsure how serious
this is or exactly what will happen. I'd keep reading tho, because
it's intriguing and overall, well-written.

Great. Thanks. :)

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
[...]

They followed him into a home occupied by a tall Fire Breeder with
dark orange hair, about a term younger than Gorash. She grabbed a
log out of the fireplace and threw it at Tashen, actually well over
his head, provided he ducked as he did. So that wasn't just an
exaggerated rumour about the Fire tribe, Dahrahn thought, amazed.

"You lukewarm spawn of wet loam, first you run off and then you
invade here with a bunch of strangers!" she almost shouted.

I love that expression. I must call someone a lukewarm spawn of wet
loam!

:)

That comment sparked the entire substitute-terms the Fire tribe uses. (I
had to do some cat-vaccuming, finding alternate terms - wet loam here
means Earth tribe. I don't like cat-vaccuming, btw. :) And I'm still not
happy with zephyr for Air tribe. Somehow that one doesn't feel right,
while the others all developed into more than just terms; they turned
out to describe an important trait of each tribe very accurately.)


When I first started working on my WIR, it was to create the universe
with a friend and a story set 150 years after the WIR. I spent a lot
of time designin patches and logos for the various military commands.
The collaboration fell apart due to my friend's health issues, and
I've reworked a lot, making it wholly mine, but I didn't bother with
the logos and patches. I don't need to describe them and I certainly
won't be using pics of them. ;)

"It's good to see you, too, mother." Tashen replied, grinning.

"Ha, so you haven't lost your memory!" she said, and then beamed,
came over and hugged the Magic Priest firmly, to the point of
crushing, and let go almost immediately. "Well? Come on in, don't
stand there blocking the way!" she said to the others. They obeyed,
their expressions ranging from amazed to amused.

[...]
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

... and then get outraged, while none of the characters are?

I wouldn't be outraged. I read to find out what's going to happen,
which is also why I write, apparently. I might think I've figured out
what will happen, but whether it does or doesn't isn't the issue. If
I guess right, I give myself some points for my cleverness.

:) That works for me when I'm reading (though I'm no good at spotting
clues - one I remember came to me while falling asleep, long after the
thing it hinted at had been revealed :) ).

With writing, I expect to be wrong with my musings on how it might turn
out - from experience.


Pretty much my experience, but I keep trying. ;) The books I figure
out are too predictable!

Like, there's one comment from a character, and I thought "Ooh,
foreshadowing. That's so Not Not Not going to happen." Guess what
happened. <sigh>

If I'm not, I figure I wasn't paying enough attention or that maybe
the author is just clever. If I'm involved in the story, and if I like
the characters, I'll worry about them and want to keep reading to
find out how it all turns out and if all my favorites survive.

<nod>

A good book can get me completely involved on an emotional level. I
just finished reading a noir series and much as I knew it couldn't end
well for the protag, given he'd become a killer, I had so much
emotion invested in him, I was rooting for a happy ending, anyway.

I can imagine reacting the same way.


We are twins!
(snip)

So, as I said, I wasn't sure how serious they were about the eating
thing or if it was something in their history and maybe no longer in
practice, or if it really did happen. The more I read, the more clues
I'd get and yeah, I'd be trying to figure it out, but if I figure
wrong, I figure wrong. I can be disappointed if the story doesn't
satisfy, but that's a factor of the writing more than what actually
happens. Anything can be well written or poorly written.

Thanks for your opinion. It's reassuring. (I still expect others to
chime in, saying they'd throw the book at the wall, though.)


Then it would be their loss, wouldn't it? ;)

The story starts with Winter people, wanting everyone close (the
permanent emotion of 'keep them safe when it's cold and storming
outside'). They are cool, calm, like a snow covered field, solid
like a glacier, but also able to rise into a raging storm. But none
of that is too strange. It still has a lot that's familiar.

We get to see pompous Magic people (looking like typical snobby
'wizards'), warm, friendy Earth people, lying, deceiving Autumn
people (and they're all still good guys, with good reasons for their
behaviour), and then we get to see Fire people. (There's even an
explanation on why their Breeders tend to throw things at people,
seemingly more the more they like them.)
I find this whole concept fascinating, actually, and I'm interested
in seeing how different the various tribes/people come across. I
don't know if I'd be fussy enough for you, but if you want a beta
reader for it, you can email me. I lean more toward sf than fantasy,
tho, if that matters.

No SF here, but if that doesn't bother you (what does it mean that you
lean more toward sf?), I'd be grateful if you had a look at it. Mainly
whether the portrayal works, and the hints add up properly, but also if
something is unclear (like you want Kevra's reaction up there). Only if
you want to comment on any one of that, of course. But we can discuss
those details in email.

I read mostly SF (and suspense/thrillers, some mysteries, literary
fic) and the occasional fantasy, usually urban fantasy. I'm not a
fairies/elves fan, except I loved Ford's The Last Hot Time, which is
about modern, urban elves. Your non-humans don't seem like the typical
fantasy, so that's cool. I'll be happy to give it a read. I have to
warn you that I do know a bit about it now that might color my
thinking, but I'll try to look at it as objectively as possible. If I
let a week or so pass without thinking about what I know, I'll
probably forget enough to be able to come to it cold, or close enough.
So, drop me an email (shelly.s at gmail.com)

I have to warn you, though, it's long, and not finished. (1st book and
2nd book around 200k words each, the 3rd only about 35k words, so that's
about 165k words still missing.) But if that's too much, just reading up
to the first big battle (about the middle of the first book), or
wherever, seeing how it works out, would help a lot, too.


If you don't mind that I'm not the world's fastest reader... but as
for the last ms I beta read, I'll bring it to work and if it's quiet
enough at the reference desk, I can work on it. What you want is that
I decide to read to the first battle and then get so involved I have
to finish! ;)

And currently I'm working on it to get rid of the rambling. :) Input
would be well appreciated for that, too.

No problem. It helps to know what the author wants the beta reader to
look for.

And I think it's easy to forget that the Seasons and Elements are
meant literally, that that's what these people are.
The more the differences are clear for each peoples, the easier I'd
have keeping that in mind.

Makes sense. :)

I think some would balk at 'Breeders' already, if it weren't made
clear from the start that they're respected, even revered, and far
from some mindless breeding machine.

Yes. Breeders has such a long history in genre writing, I think, that
the term brings its own baggage.

It has?


In some interactive writing I've done, we used breeders rather as
slaves and I remember reading a few books (and no, I can't remember
what) where that term was used). I also think the whole idea of people
existing for breeding (future generations, body parts, etc) has been
used a lot. At least, that's my impression.

For me, I can just imagine it to look odd to some people, degrading
females to nothing but birthing machines. (Sexism and all that.)


Yeah, I agree, but if you handle it well and it's not stereotypical,
it should be fine.

-- Shelly
.

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