Re: Rambling: the info (+ experiment on reader reaction)

On Dec 10, 12:42 pm, Tina_H...@xxxxxxxxxxx (Tina Hall) wrote:
ShellyS <shell...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tina_H...@xxxxxxxxxxx (Tina Hall) wrote:
ShellyS <shell...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I'm worried about it being contradictory to expectations. (Looking
at what people say as possibilities - for their behaviour, not shape
- shows that they think somewhere else than this species, think
behaviour is normal that this species would never do.)

As a reader, I care more about something being internally
contradictory, ie first the author tells me the aliens are water
breathers, then 100 pages later, they're having no trouble on dry
land, with no explanation.

Heh. At least my Water people first turn up on land, and only later
vanish in a creek without any trace. :)


That sounds fine to me. :)

As long as things are consistent, even with clear reasons and
explanations for what seems to be inconsistencies, I go along.

Ok. That would be my hope (and how I write).

Mine, too.

I don't mind if my expectations are contradicted, mostly because my
expectations, other than expecting a good read, are irrelevant. I'm
there for the author to tell me a story. If that story met any more
specific expectations, it would be more like my story. ;)

I don't think many people share that attitude. I've had people here tell
me how my world should function, and that only with the ME. In the S&E
they aren't even humans.


I know what you mean and it was something that hit me almost 20 years
ago in the writing class from Hell. I was trying to write a romance
back then, and the instructor was the biggest perpetrator. She kept
trying to get me to write a humorous romance, because that was what
was selling back then, despite my not being a funny writer, never mind
a few humorous lines I'd managed by accident. At one point, she tried
to get me to swap the protag for her best friend. And I'd witnessed
her do the same thing to others in the class, slowly "guiding" them
into writing her version of their stories. Maybe her way was "better"
or at least, more publishable, but they were still the ones writing
the words and if they didn't believe in them, it didn't work. And I
think many of us lost a lot of time rewriting things that needed
technical tweaking more than whole scale rewrites. I quit the class
(it ran like a workshop) after 2 years of getting no more than 20
pages written. And it made me very leery of getting feedback on my
writing for a long time. That my WIR has now (both drafts I've
completed) had 5 people beta read at least one version was a BIG step
for me. And when I told them to just tell me if it works and comments
on overall character and plot development, that's all they did. There
was no "I would do it this way," for which I'll be forever grateful.

You might say that them visibly being not humans is like a great big
blinking light heralding 'different', but all too often it's just humans
in rubber suits, and with people being used to that I wouldn't be
surprised to find they expect it, or at least don't think that heralds
'different thinking'. A ridged forehead or pointed ears don't make an
alien. To me it's irritating that their behaviour and thoughts, their
reasoning, are something you can find right here, being just one variety
of human reasoning. So mine do have other motivations.


True, but it can signal "alien," so it's a step. The things they
notice or don't, the way they speak and move, the things that concern
them or don't, are others. Aliens might recognize someone's scent
before their appearance, for instance, or not bother with the human
amenities such as, "Hi, how are you doing?" as generic greetings, and
so on.

As a little experiment, I'll add some text at the end of the post; [*],
to see how you (or anyone intrested in taking part) would react.

The only problem with behaviors, that I see, is the danger of saying
something is not normal for a species, without establishing what is
normal.

I can't think of any specific examples, but if I were to guess I'd say
I've got that done. There's more showing what is normal, than saying
what is not, because the 'not' usually doesn't occur to people, outside
comparing different tribes' peculiarities.


The most recent snippets I saw see so, yes. And if Alien X does
something not normal, Alien Y might notice and react to that even if
it's a subtle frown of disapproval.

And yes, doing that without an info dump is hard, probably
one reason I'm not writing aliens. Yet. The only way I see is to do
what you'd do with any human characters for whom you need to
establish personality and behavior: show what is normal first.

That's the bit where I'm worrying about the reaction; if something is
normal and nothing to object to for the characters, it can still jar
with a hypothetical human reader.


Unfortunately, you can't do anything about the reader. Every reader
brings his or her own baggage to the story and I'm starting to think
writers bring a lot more than the average person.

I would just need a few things upfront to know the setting
/characters are alien/not human, then whatever is needed to make
clear the action at the moment is about these aliens, not humans.

I guess the latter is pretty obvious by just these people and the
drakes being the viewpoints and other characters, with no humans in
sight or thought. :)
Yeah. For me, the fun of reading is the discovery. Even if I start
off thinking a book is a typical mystery, with normal human
characters, it's fun to learn as I read that the detective is a
vampire or a dinosaur in disguise, no matter how soon or late that
comes in the story.

Even when the behavour doesn't make sense for a human? (Or could even be
called stupid?)


It would depend on how it's written. I might figure out something is
odd about the character, but might not figure out what. I've been
trying to think of an example but am falling short. I remember reading
a book decades ago when it wasn't clear til very late that the protag
was a black man, but being white, I'd just assumed he was white, too.
So I was a bit taken aback, but it didn't negate what I'd read to that
point and it did give a bit more background, so I was tempted to go
back and reread sections, but I didn't mind that I hadn't know that
til late. The only books with aliens in it, that I can think of right
now, had humans, too, so there was the contrast.

Not very detailed, I know.

But that's what I asked for. A short list of things necessary at the
start. :)
Glad I could help. :) I'm a fairly easy reader. I don't fuss about
many things other readers fuss about. It takes a lot to throw me out
of a story and it takes some very boring prose to not engage me from
the start. I come to books wanting to enjoy them.

:)

I'm pretty much the opposite. Not that I don't want to enjoy them, but
lacking explanations for what I think stupid behaviour (which includes a
lot of what other people think normal), or a tedious writing style, has
me drop the book as fast as it telling of events that just bore me, or a
race I don't care about.


In the discussion about first sentences, I'd said the example wasn't
enough to make me keep reading, but in fact, I would, because I'm
willing to give the author that much leeway. I'll keep reading unless
the writing is so bad, I can't bear to continue.

To keep with that a moment, I just started reading The Stolen Child by
Keith Donohue. I loved the first line: "Don't call me a fairy." But
the lines that follow aren't as intriguing, yet the story is, so I'm
still reading. But that first line had set me up t think the narrator
had some serious issues about his nature, yet he was merely arguing
semantics, and that not all faerie types were the same and shouldn't
be lumped together. He prefers hobgoblin. So, not where I thought
things were going, but still, interesting.

That's why I stopped buying any, and just write my own.

I'd really like a beta reader as picky as I am to help get it right the
way I would like the story. (But I fear that might just lead to
disaster. <g>)


A feeling I know well. Until the first beta readers reported in, I was
a nervous wreck. So, once I knew they generally liked the story and
characters, I could handle what they didn't think worked or didn't
work well a lot better.

[*] Here's one example from the S&E (pretty early on, perhaps 10k words
in). What do you think?

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
[...]

Looking at the Priest, and how he stood as far away as possible from
Gorash's second mate while still being part of the little group, he gave
a short laugh. "Relax, I'm not going to eat you just because you're male
and talk to my mate in her present state. I'm not a drake."

The first line was a bit hard for me to read. Maybe too wordy or the
structure is off. But I love the dialogue. I'm intrigued as to why
he'd say that. Is he joking or is it a cultural thing?


"Or of the Fire tribe." Tashen suggested, now also smiling.

"Or of the Fire tribe." Gorash agreed. Their hot tempers had them
overreact to any male that even just talked to their mates when they
were in heat. It explained why the young Magic Priest hadn't visited the
last time Kevra had been in season, though.

"A male of the Fire tribe wouldn't really eat you for that, would he?"
Kevra looked from Tashen to Gorash and back.


Is Kevra nervous of the thought it might be true? I'd like some
reaction here.

"Well, probably not, but it doesn't matter what happens to you once
you're dead, does it?" Tashen replied.

"Raving avalance!" she exclaimed. "If people are tearing up other
people, the least they could do is eat them, to get some good out of
it."

"Come on, Ma," Lanar said, hooking one arm beneath one of Kevra's and
Sanar's each, "let's find something more to your liking, before you give
further sound advice."

Telling her that a death by magic left the catch, or person in this
case, uneatable was truly not a wise idea. Breeders had no interest in
'Lords' stuff', and tended to turn anything they were told upside down.

Grinning, she let herself be led away.

[...]

Well, I certainly wouldn't think they're humans, or if they were, they
were likely part of some lost tribes or on a planet other than Earth.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

Would you even wait to (much later) learn that no one actually gets
killed, because the Fire Breeders wisely stay at home during that time,
by their own choice? Or would you get as far as the following (still
within the first third of the first book)...


With just this much info to this point, I'd be unsure how serious this
is or exactly what will happen. I'd keep reading tho, because it's
intriguing and overall, well-written.
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --
[...]

They followed him into a home occupied by a tall Fire Breeder with dark
orange hair, about a term younger than Gorash. She grabbed a log out of
the fireplace and threw it at Tashen, actually well over his head,
provided he ducked as he did. So that wasn't just an exaggerated rumour
about the Fire tribe, Dahrahn thought, amazed.

"You lukewarm spawn of wet loam, first you run off and then you invade
here with a bunch of strangers!" she almost shouted.

I love that expression. I must call someone a lukewarm spawn of wet
loam!

"It's good to see you, too, mother." Tashen replied, grinning.

"Ha, so you haven't lost your memory!" she said, and then beamed, came
over and hugged the Magic Priest firmly, to the point of crushing, and
let go almost immediately. "Well? Come on in, don't stand there blocking
the way!" she said to the others. They obeyed, their expressions ranging
from amazed to amused.

[...]
-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

... and then get outraged, while none of the characters are?


I wouldn't be outraged. I read to find out what's going to happen,
which is also why I write, apparently. I might think I've figured out
what will happen, but whether it does or doesn't isn't the issue. If I
guess right, I give myself some points for my cleverness. If I'm not,
I figure I wasn't paying enough attention or that maybe the author is
just clever. If I'm involved in the story, and if I like the
characters, I'll worry about them and want to keep reading to find out
how it all turns out and if all my favorites survive. A good book can
get me completely involved on an emotional level. I just finished
reading a noir series and much as I knew it couldn't end well for the
protag, given he'd become a killer, I had so much emotion invested in
him, I was rooting for a happy ending, anyway. Wanting to avoid
spoiling anything, I'm not saying what the books are or who the author
is. After a certain point, I got to understand the curves the author
threw in the way of his protag and came to expect that anything that
could go wrong would and I would be surprised by how that happened. It
became a bit of a cat and mouse game with me and the author and I
liked that I could guess much of what happened, unlike other suspense
books where I can guess much but have still enjoyed the stories.

With science fiction and some fantasy I've read, I don't get even that
far. I mostly read them for the wonder of the world/realm the author
has created. I want to be transported to a place that's not my place.
Even if set in NYC where I live or in the present or not too distant a
future, there is usually enough for me to know I'm not in the here and
now. I don't usually read books I can identify with. I like to read
books that bring new experiences to me.

So, as I said, I wasn't sure how serious they were about the eating
thing or if it was something in their history and maybe no longer in
practice, or if it really did happen. The more I read, the more clues
I'd get and yeah, I'd be trying to figure it out, but if I figure
wrong, I figure wrong. I can be disappointed if the story doesn't
satisfy, but that's a factor of the writing more than what actually
happens. Anything can be well written or poorly written.

The story starts with Winter people, wanting everyone close (the
permanent emotion of 'keep them safe when it's cold and storming
outside'). They are cool, calm, like a snow covered field, solid like a
glacier, but also able to rise into a raging storm. But none of that is
too strange. It still has a lot that's familiar.

We get to see pompous Magic people (looking like typical snobby
'wizards'), warm, friendy Earth people, lying, deceiving Autumn people
(and they're all still good guys, with good reasons for their
behaviour), and then we get to see Fire people. (There's even an
explanation on why their Breeders tend to throw things at people,
seemingly more the more they like them.)


I find this whole concept fascinating, actually, and I'm interested in
seeing how different the various tribes/people come across. I don't
know if I'd be fussy enough for you, but if you want a beta reader for
it, you can email me. I lean more toward sf than fantasy, tho, if that
matters.

The reasons are there, because they have to satisfy me, as picky as I
am. From the silly wizards, to the scheming liars, to noisy Fire people,
to air-headed Spring people. But I know them, now. I'm not sure it would
convince anyone else. I want this story to be written in a way that
would convince me.


Of course. You're the first "reader." If you can't believe it, then no
one will likely be able to.

And I think it's easy to forget that the Seasons and Elements are meant
literally, that that's what these people are.


The more the differences are clear for each peoples, the easier I'd
have keeping that in mind.

I think some would balk at 'Breeders' already, if it weren't made clear
from the start that they're respected, even revered, and far from some
mindless breeding machine.

Yes. Breeders has such a long history in genre writing, I think, that
the term brings its own baggage.

-- Shelly
.

Relevant Pages

  • On The Road - Scroll Edition
    ... I’ve been a Kerouac fan well, ever since I was a kid. ... Harold Bloom says reading is about one thing, ... But, there are other books. ... stone, okay and Kerouac to me is like a whole body of work, a writing style ...
    (rec.music.dylan)
  • Re: Describing peoples
    ... and over during my formative years - around the time I started writing, ... Because, again, you've said that now you look back at the first draft ... (you've mentioned Lackey's "Mage Storm" books, ... characters experience' to that step. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • Re: Postmodern hero
    ... That sounds like the characters in Jonathan Franzen's ... Thanks for the reinforcement, Phyllis. ... read all the Arkady books and they're all great. ... Along with a flood of the above types, I've been reading Mahfouz's Cairo ...
    (rec.arts.books)
  • Re: Reading depends on writing, in Chinese
    ... > listening, speaking, reading, and writing. ... The Chinese language provides a unique medium for testing this ... because logographic characters in Chinese are based on meaning ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: What Are the Great SF Novels of the 1990s?
    ... If any one of the three is exceptional, it makes it fairly easy to ignore the other two - although good writing seldom stands on its own. ... If the writing is bad but I like the characters, or the story intrigues me, I'll continue reading to find out what happens, if nothing else. ... This was the case for me when reading Brian Daley's Gammalaw ) - I found it difficult to read, but I wanted to know what happened to the characters, who interested me. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.written)