Re: [CRIT] Opening

Tim S <Tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Zeborah wrote:
Tim S <Tim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Zeborah wrote:

And it feels as if everything I say, and everything
someone else says that I identify with, gets met with "<boggle>". Which
is fine the first few times; I don't deny anyone the right to express
bemusement. But after the umpteenth and umptieth "<boggle>" in such
circumstances, it no longer sounds like a curious "Huh, that's
interesting" so much as like a "You're wrong; in fact you're so wrong I
can't understand what wrong premises could wrongly cause you to wrongly
draw these wrong conclusions, you wrong person you."

And it _should_ feel like that, because unless I stand up to make myself
heard, and keep standing up to make myself heard, I _won't_ be heard,
and the case will go to the opposition by default.

I think it's possible to make oneself heard without insulting other
people. In fact I think it's easier: if one attacks the other, then
the other is likely to be to preoccupied in defending themself to listen
to your point of view.

I wasn't trying to insult people. I was trying to convey a) that my
reaction was _extremely_ from that of the people I was reply to and b)
to Jonathan, that what he was doing was working, even if obviously not
for everybody.

<nod> And it was late at night, or I probably wouldn't have left the
word 'insulting' there: that's too strong for what I meant, and also is
ambiguous between hurting intentionally and hurting accidentally; I
certainly didn't think you did the former.

('hurt' is too strong, too. I can't find a word I'm happy with, and am
suffering from deja vu: I think I've tried and failed before.)

People shouldn't be saying that thus strongly - though some have been;
not everyone replying to you, but I can understand how it would feel
that way if eg one did and the other two in their replies didn't
disagree with the first. I think it's true that if several/three people
have serious problems with it then it's worth J considering whether or
not there's something wrong that he should change; of course he has
considered it, and has decided not to change it, which is fine.

I agree it was worth him considering it, but some people seemed to be
getting a bit insistent. It's not like Jonathan was very resistent to
changing things -- he was considering writing two entire new chapters
because of what people were saying.

Well, yes. Still, he wasn't trying to change the things people were
suggesting he change just because they were suggesting he do so -- he
was coming up with his own solution to the perceived problem.

This has in the past Got me in Trouble. I've trying to
be more careful about that in this thread and if I haven't mortally
offended *everyone* in sight then I'm improving.

You didn't offend _me_, which must count for something.

Oh good.

(I'm not sure you've ever offended me, in fact. You don't seem a very
offensive person to me. Or even a slightly offensive person.)

Now that I have won :-), I would like to stop the fighting ...

:-) Agreed. (Hopefully I don't sound like I'm fighting, here or
elsewhere; I'm not intending to, so please kick me if I am.)

Zeborah
--
Gravity is no joke.
http://www.geocities.com/zeborahnz/
rasfc FAQ: http://www.lshelby.com/rasfcFAQ.html
.

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