Re: why space opera won't fly (long)

On Sep 22, 2:35 pm, Tim S <T...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Ben Crowell wrote:
DNA evidence seems to show that humans didn't evolve speech
until about 40-100 thousand years ago.

That's not true. There's no way DNA evidence could possibly show such a
thing. For a start, we know virtually nothing about the genetics of
language. Second, even if we knew all about the genetics of language,
there's no guarantee that DNA evidence could tell us anything at all
about how it evolved, even in principle. The right kind of polymorphisms
would have to exist, to date from the right times, and to be datable.
There's no particular reason why any of those things should be true.

The 40-100kya figure is basically pulled out of people's arses and I am
not the only person who thinks it stinks.

Tim

If you're talking about the evolution of speech, you're talking about
something that there's almost no evidence about. The Church of
Chomsky, for example, up until recently denied that speech could
possibly have evolved. Their "syntax is everything" approach didn't
allow a gradual acquisition.

Then there's another group that says that genus homo has always had
something that could reasonably be described as language. They point
to skull bumps on million year old skulls as evidence that they had a
much larger Broca's area than the ape's corresponding William's area.
Of course, nobody in this group thinks that it was modern language,
but they do think it was closer to what we think of as language than
the typical couple of dozen fixed animal signals.

There's a third group that thinks it was very recent, however they're
using a very different definition. They base their notions on changes
in the shape of the throat and larynx, so they're talking about fully
modern language.

About FOXP2. There's been activity on that front in the last couple of
days! It turns out that FOXP2 is nowhere near as conserved as people
used to think. See:

http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/genetics/language/foxp2_echolocation_bats_li_2007.html

for a summary of the latest paper, and also a link to the actual
paper. It's free public access.

John Roth


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Relevant Pages

  • Re: why space opera wont fly (long)
    ... There's no way DNA evidence could possibly show ... genetics of language, there's no guarantee that DNA evidence could ... Of course, nobody in this group thinks that it was modern language, ... It turns out that FOXP2 is nowhere near as conserved as people ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • Re: why space opera wont fly (long)
    ... Second, even if we knew all about the genetics of language, there's no guarantee that DNA evidence could tell us anything at all about how it evolved, even in principle. ... That researchers think there's something significant to be gained by looking at a single gene with glaringly obvious effects is to me powerful prima facie evidence of the truth of the proposition that "We know virtually nothing about the genetics of language." ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • Re: why space opera wont fly (long)
    ... Second, even if we knew all about the genetics of language, there's no guarantee that DNA evidence could tell us anything at all about how it evolved, even in principle. ... That researchers think there's something significant to be gained by looking at a single gene with glaringly obvious effects is to me powerful prima facie evidence of the truth of the proposition that "We know virtually nothing about the genetics of language." ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • Re: why space opera wont fly (long)
    ... Tim S wrote: ... Second, even if we knew all about the genetics of language, there's no guarantee that DNA evidence could tell us anything at all about how it evolved, even in principle. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)
  • Re: why space opera wont fly (long)
    ... Ben Crowell wrote: ... Second, even if we knew all about the genetics of language, there's no guarantee that DNA evidence could tell us anything at all about how it evolved, even in principle. ...
    (rec.arts.sf.composition)