Re: Questions (Space)

Jonathan L Cunningham <spam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Jonathan L Cunningham <spam@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tina Hall <Tina_Hall@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Is that the same way that an electron can be seen as having the size
of its atom, even though it's just whizzing around and the 'size'
seen is just the space it travels through?

No, I imagine them as fuzzy balls.

But I don't mind if other people imagine them as tiny things whizzing
around.

Well, I'm looking for an image. Your fuzzy balls don't work for me.

Because I would think those particles are a lot smaller (and
certainly visible if that big). I mean, bowling balls whizzing
around _ougth_ to be noticed, even ones without weight. <g>

The bigger they are, the lighter they are. It's the small ones that
are heavy :-)

Only if they have the same weight. ;)

No really, they don't have mass, so how could they weigh anything.

Or maybe like some kind of sticky fog, which remains in a clump and
doesn't dissipate. (So it can float through a mesh, people can walk
through the big ones (radio photons) etc.)

I think I'll stick to 'space they're occupying' rather than
imagining all those man-sized ballons. There would be much less
lighting here if they were the size of balloons. (Because there
would be no room for the neighbours inside the balloon.)

<shrug>. As you like. I don't mind.

That isn't helpful, you know. :)

But what you're trying to say is that that space is indeed a
physical change in location (other than forwards), the wave?

I don't understand this.

The space they occupy, your fuzzy balls. Or do you see the balls
themselves bouncing around?

I don't like that. It gets me back to what I didn't understand right
at the start; physical 2D waves in 3D.

Um, the waves are side-to-side, while travelling forwards. I wouldn't
call that a 2D wave.

It's only got two dimensions that way.

I think we are failing to understand each other here. It's probably
not worth the effort to straighten out.

Ok.

I don't usually think about what they're made of though. Just how
they behave.

Well, they originate somewhere.

You've asked that question (or said that) a few times. I haven't
attempted to answer it because I don't have an answer. I'll be
interested to see if anyone else attempts an answer.

I think Rik gave one at the end of his post I just replied to. (But now
I wonder how to transfer 'antenna' to 'sun'.)

But now I'm confused. Because I got to think that the wave is just
measured, not something that happens _with_ the photon.

It *is* more like something that happens *with* the photon, (or the
electron, or any other particle). That's why I don't like your
picture that the photon (or electron etc.) makes the wave. It
doesn't.

I didn't say it makes the wave, that's the picture I don't like; it
moving about in a wavy line. I say the wave can be observed when you
manage to stick a measuring device into the space it travels through;
the energy displayed on a screen has the wave form. (Which agrees with
what I understood of Rik's post, if I understood that right, anyway. But
with that you even get 'up and down' and 'left and right' waves. One
magnetic, the other electric.)

But the wave is just the intensity (rising and falling), no? They
don't

I've no idea what the wave is. Sometimes it's called a "probability
wave". I can't see any way for this to make sense. I know what is
*meant* by it. Meanings don't have to accord with common sense.

Does reality have to make sense?

Huh?

I take that as a "yes, reality has to make sense".

:)

No, I just see the question coming out of the blue with no connection to
the subject. (And the probability wave thing has no picture attached.)

Looks like you're losing interest. Better say so than confirm images
that don't make sense.

No, I haven't lost interest yet.

But I'm less certain that things have to make sense than I was when I
was younger.

This isn't about sense, but an image. I can imagine something you can't
build a model of.

(My ME magic is like that. It's got lots of funny rules, with no need to
obey physical laws - that's what makes it magic. In fact, the stuff in
this thread has already reminded me of things in that, no actual
parallels, but vague similarities of concepts being a bit odd.)

The crucial point here is that there might be more than one way to
understand, and that not all ways work for understanding each thing.
Maybe no way works for understanding everything.

I know people have different ways of understanding something, that's
what makes this subject so difficult to explain to me.

[*] Actually, I don't accept that. But I might have to sell my
immortal soul[**] to Dark Powers for the understanding. Cheap at the
price.

[**] Assuming I have a soul, and haven't accidentally mislaid it
somewhere else.

:)

Usually people get confused when told that something both travels
and doesn't travel. You may be an exception. Perhaps you'll have
the big insight which makes sense of quantum mechanics ... trouble
is, no one will believe you because you don't do the math. (And
most of the rest of us wouldn't understand this big insight
anyway.)

Nothing new there. I'm used to insights no one understands. :)

It's just a shame that I don't know all this stuff, and thus no
insights.

<shrug> I doubt you're more than a few thousand years old.

Now you sound like my funny neighbour. It's just so completely
unrealistic to even sugesst a _few thousand_ years.

That's hardly any time at all to know stuff. If you are younger than
that, I'm surprised you've had time to learn anything at all. I'm only
<mumble> years old, and I've barely started.

There are living people who know this stuff, so I don't think it's a
matter of getting old, just learning it at the right time (when the mind
is fresh and agile).

Talking about which. Are there any interesting sites with free brain
jogging exercises? (I borrowed some books from the library about how to
improve memory. And promptly forgot to give them back. Those I looked
into had some interesting exercises, though, and that is supposed to
increase mental agility.)

--
Tina
WIP: Space: 1317 words
WISuspension: Seasons & Elements trilogy | Magic Earth series
Posted to Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition.

.

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