Re: Questions (Space)

Ric Locke <warlocke@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tina Hall wrote:
Sea Wasp <seawaspObvious@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Tina Hall wrote:

The light that travels has to be something. There's something that
first hits the cupboard, then my eye, for example. Or comes from a
distant star.

Energy.

That's the same sort of 'effect observed' term as light is. What is
energy? What does it look like? (Not, what does it look like on a
measuring device, but for real.)

Tina, that's the problem in a nutshell. Energy makes things happen --
motion, changes, any occurrence. More properly, /changes/ in energy
make things happen, and things happening makes changes in energy.

So far so well.

But all we can ever see is the observed effect. "Energy" is the
ultimate abstract; it has absolutely no concrete analog, no
particles, nothing. A particle /has/ energy -- or, more correctly, it
has energy compared to its surroundings -- but the particle is not
energy.

I can work with that. If I get a particle that _is_ something.

(I get to think of a dog that carries fleas around. Ok, fleas are solid,
but still. They hide in the fur and - let's assume - aren't visible.
Transfering that I can accept that we just can't see the 'fleas' _yet_,
just the dog scratching itself, and the bites when they jump on someone
else. Better analogy - for this particular aspect, not the whole thing -
might be bacteria. Heaps of bacteria, and no one could see them, back
then.)

A wave has energy compared to the nonmoving equivalent, but
the wave is not energy. We can see the effects, but the underlying
concept just can't be seen or even analogized because it's just a
convenient way of grouping things.

I'm dropping out here. Why no analogy? Grouping things? Nonmoving
equivalent? (That's not questions but pointing at the bits I can't
follow.) Who says a wave is energy? (That's confusing.)

In fact, the word "correct" might be a good analogy. A program is
correct if it runs without error; an explanation is correct if it
accurately describes something. But we can't haul "correct" out and
look at it -- it's a quality of something else, not an entity to
itself. Energy is the same way.

Energy is a noun, correct a verb. Energetic has different implications,
but it's what I picture in this context already. To not confuse me, it
would be nice if it were really just 'energetic' particles. I can
picture that. Whether they pulse, or whether they're coming in one after
another in different strengths, or whatever, doesn't matter. Just tell
me which it is.

The particles (photons someone mentioned) are a solid thing I can
imagine. Energy as a property is fine. (Property, attribute, is what I
assume you mean, even though I can't align 'correct' and 'energy' in the
same pot. In that sense your analogy worked. :) )

So when you ask for a concrete analogy we're stuck. We can't give you
a sticks-and-marbles picture of energy, any more than we could do so
for "correct", "patriotic", or "German". In each case we could cite
an observable effect of possession of those qualities, but when it
comes to picturing the quality itself there is no picture.

I would disagree. I wouldn't understand the words if there were no image
or feeling. :)

(I never said my images don't have parameters, in the case of German,
for a simple example, it's a person, as well as a place on a map the
meaning is attached to.)

If you can internalize the situation that way,

I think my understanding has grown a bit, from all the helpful replies
together. :)

I have several ideas on how to proceed.

In what direction?

Among the links I got, there were some interesting things I haven't yet
all read. Some text (I just checked) on electromagnetic spectrum has
data (not that I know what electromagnetic means, but it lists different
types, and as I now see, also explains that's indeed all photons).

What I'm curious about is how they come to be, or at least the source.
Do they split off somewhere? Do they just appear? Is the sun (and a
radio station) just producing them? (How?)

I'm trying to narrow it down, so it doesn't digress too far or gets too
complicated. (I'm certainly interested in much more, but it's a huge
subject.)

If not, well, I guess I'm just not smart enough.

If there's a problem, it's translating. Not English, but how you
understand it into something I understand. Guessing the right analogies
can be difficult (with all the years of us posting here you still don't
have the direct experience of teaching me something and seeing the
result face to face), some hit home, others just confuse. So I try to
add my own asking whether they're ok.

--
Tina
WIP: Space: 1317 words
WISuspension: Seasons & Elements trilogy | Magic Earth series
Posted to Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.sf.composition.

.

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