Re: Beginnings

"Tina Hall" <Tina_Hall@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:MSGID_2=3A240=2F2199.13=40fidonet_3fbd70a3@xxxxxxxxxxx

I don't know that to point out that a first draft can be revised
later is a projection of method - it is a statement of fact.

_If_ you do a first draft and intend to do a second draft.
snip> > Actually it is true whatever your intention.

That, from you? I can only shake my head.

Why? Disliking being told what to do does not make me unable
to escape obvious truths like 'a finished book is a different thing
to an unfinished one.'

snip>
You're talking about something else. I'm talking about people saying
"there are mistakes here, but I won't tell you because you can correct
them when you do the second draft, this is just a crude first draft
anyway".

It isn't reassuring.

I don't know when that has happened in particular but if there are
problems with view point or focus that are going to require a major
rewrite that has to come before small issues of phrasing can be
addressed.
There is no point in nit picking something which is likely to be
deleted or reordered.

To a beginning writer this can be very frustrating, especially
when he goes by what feels right to do, intuitive. (I know
you're one of the first to yell at prescriptive advice, and this
kind of thing falls into that category.)

Well, I'm sorry if you feel that. There is no rule that says you have
to do a second draft,

Well, I know that, now. I'm talking about beginning writers coming here
and getting told that what they have to do is write a crappy first draft
that later gets corrected, because That Is The Way. If not outright
told, then it is strongly implied.

I don't think that is true. If what is posted is good, people will
nit pick, if it has some structural problems people will suggest
that those are resolved before addressing the minutiae.
Why waste time arguing about words that probably shouldn't be there?
I think you may have misunderstood what people are trying to do.
snip> I wasn't directing it at you, personally. This digression started
with
me saying that it irritates me when people automatically assume a second
draft and push that method onto new people.


If everything is in the wrong place jumps between POVs and
is in need of major reworking - those issues have to be addressed
first, it is a question of necessity not method. You can call it
whatever you want 'Draft 1 reworked' but the minute you post here you
have to expect the possibility of a rewrite - that's what critiques
are for - highlighting what needs reworking.
Unitl the extract makes some kind of narrative sense there is no
point in choosing the perfect word.

snip> > sounds like you're talking about a thread I've missed. I'm not
sure in any case that writing mistakes can be corrected in
advance by good advice - not in my world.

So that just means you work differently than I. Do you say that I ought
to work the way you do?

No. I'm sayihg the exact opposite. I'm saying that it is very unlikely
that someone else can do your learning for you. Sometimes experienced
people like Paricia can pin point precisely the nature of your
difficulty, but more often than not other people's experience is not
expressed in a way that you find accessible and useful.
Some people learn from books or whatever but everyone is obliged to
test their learning by actually writing and that is a personal thing
and has to be wrestled with by the person doing the
writing. No one else knows precisely what you want to achieve, what
feel you're after, the exact thing that you don't understand.
I don't see what you expect us to say that can make your writing job
easier. It seems to be expecting far too much of a group of people
chatting about writing.


snip> > I think the problem is that if you are an intuitive writer there
probably isn't another way of doing it other than by trying and
learning from your mistakes.

That's you. Do you think all others have to function the same way?

As that is how I'm defining 'intuitive writer' then I think that is how
intuitive writers learn - yes.

The defining feature of an intuitve writer, I would say, is that they
write by instinct not rule and don't give much conscious thought to
the process.

We're clearly differently intuitive, on opposite ends of the scale.

I've seen you mentioning questions about 'who is this, where are they'
(or similar), and you write to find that out. I assume the wording just
comes from somewhere in your backbrain, and that's the intuitive part.

I think people tend to describe my writing s intuitive because I don't
think about the elements of story writing as I work. I can
either do them or I can't and because I don't want to look at my work
analytically I'm sort of limited to learning by doing.

I see 'who is this, where are they', and write the story from that
moment, like seeing a movie and writing down what happens, moment after
moment, the 'tape' put on pause while I write. I know what happens at
each point (ignoring for the moment the thing where I got stuck), but
have to search for the right wording, describing what is going on. That
doesn't come from somewhere in my backbrain, or only does with some very
internal scenes.

You can call that intuitive if you want - but it isn't he way I think
we've been using the word here.

So, rules about writing do help me. Either unconsciously or consciously
noticing them.

snip.

Same with repetitions. I already knew they were bad unless they have a
particular purpose, but others might not be aware of it.

That's just examples, I'm sure there are more, but I haven't found them
on my own, and no one has pointed any out to me, as far as I remember.

What you are talking about here is the kind of stuff that is usually
covered in school - even in my school. I did not think you were talking
about that kind of thing.

snip>
Well, I thought the point of this forum was to share experiences.

So you see no difference between 'I do it this way' and, 'you'll do it
this way'?

Don't be argumentative just for the hell of it. I'm not saying anything
that isn't obvious. When you read a book that you have finished
you can see what you've done. Until it is finished you cannnot see
exactly what you have done because it is still in your head not on the
page.
For most people that makes reading a completed book different from
rading an uncompleted book. If there is no difference for you -
you are very unusual indeed.

It is hardly prescriptive to say a story looks different when it
is finished - I would say it was common sense.

You aren't new to it.

No, but I think I realised that when I was. How can it not be?


snip> > What would you like to know?

How to spot structure and pace. The more idea I have about what works,
formulas, the more just comes along on the ride when I do write. Not
that I'll absorb everything regardless of whether I agree, but the
things that are useful to me do insert themselve somewhere in my
backbrain. That's why I am interested in other people's methods.


This probably needs a new thread.

Nicky (apologies for radical snippage - posting probs)


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