Re: Stories for James Nicoll's Nightmarish Future

Damien Sullivan wrote: 
Bill Swears <wswears@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Jonathan L Cunningham wrote: 


But it's a little hard (for me) to justify why I think the Lensman
Civilisation is a dystopia. One is, I think, the same lack of freedom
that we both see in BNW. Except that in the Lensman universe it's done
by force (and death chambers) rather than childhood training (or


What? I thought Civilization was pretty free.

I didn't really answer Jonathan's comment because I don't recall the Arisian's or the humans using force or death chambers. Also, I don't have any idea one way or the other whether Doc Smith wanted the Lensman universe to be any kind of utopia or dystopia.


over the world. I think Doc Smith saw the world in a similar light, and was drawing to a form of total government that was so benign the people


What was the tax rate of mature Civilization? 2%?

We never saw mature civilization. Just a stage of growth. For the Children of the Lens, it was 100% since they were expected to spend eternity policing the entire universe.


would welcome it. He felt that an outside force that could see corruption inside the man would be necessary to have a government that benign. In other words, a truly benign and comprehensive form of government, that could handle external threats, would require magic to maintain, and constant observation of all its representatives. Not just for their actions, but their intents. 


Something like this might be possible; some of the brain-scanning techniques
sound close to being true lie detectors, which if you ran them on gov't
officials frequently might catch a lot.  Association tests under scan might
flag some more subtle self-deception or motivational things.

Of course, then there's who you trust to run the scans.

But, you can't have a magic lens unless you are inherently incorruptible. So you know the spy, er lensman, just by owning a scanner, is trustworthy. At least insofar as his views of morality agree with your own.

Oh, you mean in real life. Well, That's why I always vote for a president from the out of power party. I prefer my government to handicap itself. I don't really trust anybody to be the ultimate supervisor.


I think he created a milieu where that was justified, but it involved an alien race so evil its reaction to humanity would be to immediately attempt our destruction. And so powerful that without immediate total 


Aw, they didn't want to destroy us, just take over and run things for their
benefit, one planet per Great Old One^W^W^WEddorian.

Well, right up until it became obvious we were too dangerous to them to be allowed to exist.


the universe?" Nobody needs that kind of power or responsibility. And, after the breeding program the Arisians put humanity through, they deserved to die as a species. Yeah, at the start of this wandering 


Eh, why?

-xx- Damien X-)
I might be willing to engage in a breeding program. But if anybody tries to do it to me, here on earth, and without my permission, I'm going to give up all my prior plans and set out to kill him, her, it, or them. Don't turn me into a breed animal. Even if their efforts are 'for my own good'.

I feel precisely the same way about hyperintelligent shades of blue, benign dragons, or enigmatic but wise aliens conducting similar programs, no matter how well meant.

I think my reasoning on this issue falls into the category of, I'll let my descendents, should there be any, make up their own reasons for what I did.

I think the Doc Smith intent of the Arisians was that they breed a small portion of our race to reach our "fullest potential" in a hurry, geologically. I don't think there is an alien race to whom I'm likely to cede my genetic destiny, or lack thereof. What if the Arisian version of fullest potential lacked sufficient vision, and actually denied us a fuller, 'fullest potential'?

It just isn't a gamble I want somebody else taking.

What it comes down to though, is that I felt there was a symetry in the Arisian decision to go on to the next plane. What they did to humanity amounted to such arrogant manipulation there simply had to be a reckoning.
--
Bill Swears

Ever Inappropriate, always contrite, and now... Ironic!  How cool is that?
.

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