Re: Mentality in Fantasy


Anna Mazzoldi wrote:
> David Friedman wrote in rec.arts.sf.composition:
>
> > In article <xn0e59bbbul1yl000@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
> > "Anna Mazzoldi" <AnnaUsenet@xxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > > Ben Crowell wrote in rec.arts.sf.composition:
> > >
> > > > There is a lot of debate about what family really meant in the
> > > > Middle Ages. For instance, some historians claim that our whole
> > > > concept of childhood is a modern invention, but others disagree.
> > > > With respect to marriage, certainly the customs were different,
> > > > but I'm not convinced that 100% of medieval marriages were like
> > > > livestock sales,
> > >
> > > I'm pretty sure they weren't, especially if we're talking about
> > > peasants. When there wasn't much property, status or power to gain
> > > or lose one way or the other, families would exercise much less
> > > control on marriages. This doesn't necessarily mean that young
> > > people got to marry based on romantic love -- but they did get to
> > > make their own choices choose more than their richer or socially
> > > superior contemporaries. And this would go for both men and women
> > > -- which would make poor women, *in this one thing*, better off
> > > than the rich ones.
> >
> > I suspect that, at all levels, women had some control over who they
> > married, although not unlimited control. In saga period Iceland, as I
> > understand the situation, a woman's first marriage could be arranged
> > without her consent, but not subsequent marriages.
>
> This seems to be a recurring pattern: being a widow is often the most
> independent situation for a woman in pre-modern times. In most cases,
> though, it's closely linked with the economic situation: the widow is
> independent because she acquires property and/or position from her
> deceased husband (for example, in medieval/renaissance Italy, there
> were female "masters" of the craft guilds: these were masters' widows
> who had inherited the workshop and with it the title and position).
>
> > And Njalsaga, at
> > least, leaves one with the impression that marrying your daughter to
> > someone she didn't want was distinctly risky.
> >
> > I'm also reminded of a pre-Islamic arabic story, where a man has
> > decided to marry one of his daughters to a suitor. He asks the first
> > daughter, she says no, so he asks the second, who says no, so he asks
> > the third, who says she will do as her father thinks best. Not the
> > same society we were discussing, but I suspect a similar pattern.
>
> These other examples, however, seem to rely entirely on the parents'
> goodwill (and possibly wisdom <g>): I'm sure there have always been
> parents who didn't force their daughers (or sons) to marry against
> their wishes. That the possibility is contemplated is significant, but
> I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it.

Yes. But then, a substantial number of parents have goodwill and/or
wisdom. Hence "some control."

I once had a very long conversation (Bombay to Sydney) with a woman
from southern India who was flying out to join her husband. It was an
arranged marriage, and she was as curious about our odd customs as I
was about theirs. It sounded as though her parents made the initial
choice, but it was understood that she had a de facto veto if, once she
met the suitor, she didn't like him.

.

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