Re: Wimsey and Campion and Templar

In article <xPCdnaLNXry8psfRnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Stanley Moore <smoore20@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

"Dorothy J Heydt" <djheydt@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:L6nrFw.1Lru@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
In article <nOydnRkgoIJQgsfRnZ2dnUVZ8roAAAAA@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
JF <julian@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Stanley Moore wrote:

can you imagine Paris Hilton solving crimes? Upper classes...

Err....

She doesn't correspond to anything remotely resembling upper
classes. She merely has money. "Nouveau riche" is the phrase,
and any proper upperclassperson would look down his aristocratic
nose at her, even as the rest of us do.

Nouveau isn't quite right. the Hiltons have had money for a fairly long time

Not all that long. It was only her great-grandfather who made
the money. If he'd been English, he would probably have been
made a "butter-and-egg baron" or even -baronet, his children (I
believe) would have been Honourables, and his grandchildren and
his wayward great-grandchild nobody-in-particulars.

though I agree that being "in trade" would put them definitely on the second
or even third tier of "society" . But nouveau they are not. Hoteliers make
them "in trade" and not top drawer. But a suitable donation to the royals
could elevate them to nobility. Many a commoner became a peer by way of
financial means in the distnat past.

Anyway the real upper classes are only there by virtue of time. Lord Peters
ancestor, the first Duke of Denver was a more or less nobody in the Crusdaes
but by Gerald, the 15th Duke of Denver, they are sanctified by time. The
same is true of most other noble families in Britain. Anyway PH was the
only person I could think of that corresponded to aristocracy in our
degenerate times. Except for the British royal family nobility doesn't have
much cachet nowadays. In my youth the newspapers frequently reported on the
comings and goings of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor. He at least was real
nobility if not her. But you never hear of aristocrats today.

In the Sayers books Lord Peter was very well known to the public at large;
not so in our modern day. A duke or even a duke;s brother doesn;t get much
press. Now LPW was well known but Albert Campion was incognito.... Rudolf K
was his real name IIRC so he wasn't really notorious but the real
aristocracy did know who he was.

Allingham was very sneaky about who Campion really was, but he
appears, like Lord Peter, to have been the younger son of a Duke
and to have actually succeeded to the title after WWII, only he
either rejected it or ignored it and nobody ever mentions it but
Lugg.

Who would be an aristocratic detective in the old school spirit today? If
not Paris Hilton, then who? Interesting idea..... write a tale about Lord
Peter's grandson or great grandson solving crimes today. LPW was born in
1890 and his grandson would be about my age 60-something or even
70-something so maybe a great grandson woud work. In the book about the
WImsey family the speculation is that Jerry is killed as a member of the RAF
in the Battle of Britain and Lord Peter takes the title so a grandson or
great grandson would be either a Duke or at least a lord.

If Ld. Peter succeeded, his eldest son (Bredon, IIRC) would
become Viscount St.-George (and Duke eventually). His second son
would be Lord Paul Wimsey. Lord Paul's son would be (e.g) the
Honourable Charles Wimsey and his son would be Mr. Paul Wimsey.

It is interesting that nobliliy titles are not perpetual. WInson Churchill
was the grandson of a Duke (Marlborough) IIRC, his father Lord Randolph
being a younger son and himself being a mere commoner.

Ah-ha-ha, you would've better not used the word "mere" in his
hearing while he lived. After his impressive leadership in WWII
there was talk of ennobling him, and he said (approximately) No
way, I were a Peer I couldn't sit in the House of Commons!

However, he did (in 1953) become a Knight of the Garter, an order
that had always been limited to noblemen. And the story goes (and
I have NO idea if there's any truth in it, but it's a good story)
that when Queen Elizabeth was discussing the possibility of this
award with the existing members of the Garter, they complained
that it had always been limited to members of the nobility. And
Elizabeth (who was at that time still quite a young woman) didn't
answer, but Prince Philip, who'd been standing by her chair,
leaned down and whispered in her ear. And then she said, "My
Lords, what you say is true. But whom We choose to ennoble, he
is ennobled; and whom We choose to degrade, he is degraded into
the dust." And they were silent, and Sir Winston got his Garter.

There's a scene in _Sorcery and Cecelia_ (Wrede and Stevermer) in
which a young man, aspirant to a young lady's hand, says sadly
that he is "nobody," and our heroine says, "You are not 'nobody'!
Why, your grandfather was the son of a duke!" So while he is not
titled himself, (as Brutus said of Strato, and Lord Peter said of
Miss Twitterton) his life has had some smatch of honour in it,
which the young lady's father is expected to recognize.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Should you wish to email me, you'd better use the gmail edress.
Kithrup's all spammy and hotmail's been hacked.
.

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