Re: Excuse Me...

Lynn Allen wrote:

On 2007-07-08 21:17:24 -0700, clete purcell's next girlfriend <queenjen@xxxxxxxxxxxx> said:

Hey I'm a newbie here and for those of you who live here and obviously
all know each other really really well,this place is damned scary!!!


We were all new once. It's not so scary if you come in without assumptions. I once felt intimidated by people who obviously knew each other and met in RL, and had a much closer relationship than simply posters to a common group. But when I posted about books or in OT threads, I was welcomed. No more scary.


My experience in the last 2 weeks since I got here has been that there
is a limited amount of discussion on the mystery genre compared to
say, the mid east conflict? I was astounded at What Happened to
Willow, to me, one little quote and this person was blasted in 86 some
posts. it was a QUOTE people, it was vaguely interesting, right or
wrong. Maybe its time to get a room.


Trying come in as a late-comer, to prescribe what ANY pre-existing internet community SHOULD do is a sure route to being ignored, kill-filed, or ostracized. That's just the way the internet is...the eternal opportunity to both opt-in to the existing group gestalt, or opt out if it doesn't please you. There is NO opportunity, none, of changing what exists to suit yourself (second person you, there).

We run a lot of OT posts. We always will. There are moderated groups that permit NO off-topic posts at all. If all you want is book discussions with no personal content, search them out. Or ignore everything that's off-topic. The "Ignore thread" command in your newsreader will help with this.

I cannot count the number of people who have come in, observed for a couple of days, and then proceeded to lecture us that we don't post enough on topic, that the OT stuff gets in the way (apparently under the impression those few people who do post owe them entertainment of the type they prefer), and that we are cliquey, biased against new people, hostile, and against whatever they happen to be/believe. Whether that's liberal, conservative, religious, Australian, Jewish, gay, transgendered (how would WE know?) or blue with polka-dots, we must be against them because....just because.


As a new person, I checked the link for the description of this site
and I didn't find any FAQs as referred to above. I'd appreciate
seeing them. Also, no one seems to post a profile


First off, rec.arts.mystery is not a "site." It's a Usenet News Group, and while it is possible to access it through a web browser so it *looks* like a website it is not. Usenet lives on a worldwide network of dedicated servers, and most of us access it through a news reader application. This means that as a non-moderated group, no one "owns" it, owns the content or is responsible for what is said or what happens.

There is FAQ (I think that a link is published on the order of once a month, a search in the archives will turn that up). It is a volunteer effort and may not be complete. We are not responsible for any "link" to the description of the newsgroup (not site) and not responsible for any description. It was put together by someone else, and so might be incorrect.

But there is no "site." All that RAM actually is is a collection of posts by individuals. Any resemblance to a website, an organization or a club is entirely in the mind of the beholder.

You can dismiss me as a stupid ignorant new person, but I WAS one of
the people that contacted Willow because what I saw was just NOT
CRICKET guys. This place is also incredibly US-centric, fyi. I
posted a coupla things about Australia and felt uncomfortable doing so
because they were OT.


That's really funny. US-centric. Maybe most of the people on the Internet are from the US? On THIS group, however, we have Fran from Tasmania, Mique and John Oliver from Australia, Jim Barker from Scotland, Rik Shephard (he of the marvelous travelogues) from London, at least four from Canada, and many more I can't remember at the moment from various areas. In addition, some of us travel or live in other places, and report first person on same.

I think that most of the active posters are in the US, yes. I think that reflects the demographics of the Internet, mostly. We are entirely aware that the US isn't alone in the world, and always wish our neighbors happy Canada Day or Guy Fawkes day, or whatever. Post whatever you like about Australia, but be aware you'll get fewer responses than on an all-Australia newsgroup.


I'm sure I'm going to draw fire now for not doing something bleedingly
obvious to the rest of you (but not to me), so I'll apologise in
advance: I'm NEW, I've just discovered this forum and maybe my pov
should be interesting to anyone who lives here and is still keen on
attracting new members? I tried to get oriented on this site, but its
not easy or obvious, please correct me if I'm wrong.


I'm not sure we want to attract "new members" as such. We love new points of view, yes. Membership doesn't exist...only the willingness to enter the group dynamic AS IT EXISTS. Don't post or comment in OT threads...that's fine. Comment only in OT threads, that's fine too. Do NOT, however, enter into debate if you're not willing to back up your opinions with references, that doesn't fly. There are some ferocious researchers on this group, if you just repeat opinions with no backup, you'll only look silly.

People (generally) talk to issues, and don't indulge in personal attacks. Opinions HAVE been changed, in the past, but when that doesn't happen, the debating parties will still talk to one another, civilly. I cannot tell you how my own debating skills have improved since I started posting here. And my first husband was a lawyer, so I was already pretty skilled!

What doesn't work is for people to come in and tell us we're doing it all wrong and we ought to change it for the sake of new people.


I'm no shrinking violet, but this place is prickly if your new. Maybe
you should consider some of your advertised decades old members maybe
forming a welcoming posse every coupla weeks to encourage new
members. Or maybe you're quite happy exactly the way you are. I'm
gonna lurk and post for a few more weeks before I chuck it in. But
please hear me: You are alienating people who might be an asset to the
group.


Nope. The assumptions you make above, unfortunately, lead to many mistaken conclusions on your part, and thus to hurt feelings.

There are no "members." There are only people who post, people who lurk (read without posting), and people who don't read or care about rec.arts.mystery. So there is no drive to acquire new "members." New posters or lurkers will happen, as they do, as people come across or search for references to mystery discussion groups. BTW, the normally accepted ratio of lurkers to posters on Usenet is about 1 to 100. So if 50 different people post in any given month, we'll assume there are 5,000+ people out there reading but not posting. Any of those lurkers can become a poster at any time. We don't recruit, beyond welcoming new people (as you and Willow were welcomed) and sometimes urging the lurkers to come forward, once they break cover. The group is not an "organization" in ANY sense of the word...there are no goals, no mission, no management and no oversight.

Those who post persistently, and with enjoyment, are those who BEST FIT the group dynamic without trying to change it. There are a few persistent thorns-in-the-side, who come back every few weeks with paranoid or bigoted rants, most of us have kill-filed them. Some of us persist in reading and responding to them in the hope that they might be redeemed. Some people post infrequently, because their lives are very busy. Some have left because any hint of confrontation disturbs them. Some people see any disagreement as attack, and that doesn't play well with people who see debate and opposing viewpoints as entertainment.

We are welcoming of new people who come forward with earnest intentions, and even those who plop in with very "troll-like" behavior get a few chances before they are ignored into obscurity. Ask Greggo. He caused quite a few dustups when he first arrived...even some acrimony. But he modified his debating style (he did NOT change his opinions) to fit in better, and eventually even won some people over to his point of view (as a conservative on this generally "liberalish" group, he had some different opinions). Now he's greeted with real affection when he returns.

If you think RAM is "prickly" I invite you to explore some of the other newsgroups out there. We are a bastion of gentle affirmation compared to most of the vast "get them before they get you" attack dogs on Usenet. We don't care that we're "alienating" new people...because new people who DO fit in will be along shortly.

The formula for RAM has been working well for 10+ years...the percentage of OT posts goes up and down with time but generally remains steady, new people come in and we keep talking about mysteries on occasion. This isn't so much snobbism as the general philosophy of Usenet. We're not closing the door behind us to new posters, in any way, shape, or form. New people join all the time. Some of them fit. Some of them don't. The ones who don't move on. There are places where their personalities will fit better and they'll be happier, unless they are people who are never happy with anything.

RAM is a vital and living community, and one in which everyone who is here and stays here agrees it's the right place for them to be. Quite an accomplishment, as in almost any real-life community there are going to be the dissatisfied, the disenfranchised, and the disgruntled.

The "I'll take my invaluable postings and go off and found a *better* forum that goes exactly as I say it should and everyone will flock to" pout is a funny one, one we've seen many times. The only thing we can say is "fine, have a good time." Because RAM will most like be here in another 10 years, serving a community of people who like it as it is then.

Well said, Lymaree! I first joined RAM in '95, in grad school, dropped out when I returned home where I had no internet connection, and rejoined in... I think 2001? when I got a reliable computer again. Yes, it's tough to find your feet at first, but it's a great bunch of folks, and thank heavens that RAM doesn't degenerate into flame-wars like some other Usenet groups!

Catherine
.

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