Re: Proms

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could you give an example of this Irish folk music that doesn't use
traditional instruments? Folk music is by definition traditional
music

No it isn't. Folk music is by definition Irish pop music.

<<<Not by any definition but yours. Quoth Wikipedia:>>>

Anyone can write what they like in Wikipedia.

Now, now, Aggy, no double standards. Wikipedia proved that RTD
admitted to a cameo in Dr Who, after all. You said so, so it must be
true.

Anyone can edit Wikipedia.

Except on you, apparently, based on implied admissions in past threads
that your edits regarding Greek history and religion were rejected.

RTD has already admitted being in the walk-on
cameo.

No he hasn't. He's admitted that he would never do a cameo.

<<<"Traditional music: The original meaning of the term "folk music" was
synonymous with the term "Traditional music", also often including>>>

No it wasn't. It was synonymous with a 1950's/60's attempt to concoct a
fake
genre of Irish music that would give the false impression that it was
traditional, but neither was it traditional nor was it even based
predominantly on Irish music.

This was the "original meaning" that was being used before the 1950s,
right?

The meaning of Folk Music is Irish Pop Music. Nobody outside of the English
speaking world uses the term Folk to refer to their own traditional music.

Stop parrotting and respond to the question, Aggy. What were people in
the English-speaking world referring to prior to the 1950s (before
which there was no such idea or expression as pop music, Irish or
otherwise), if folk music is a form of Irish pop created in the '50s?

<<<World Music and Roots music; the term "Traditional music" was given>>>

World Music is a genre of Experimental Art Music and another artificial
genre. It has nothing to do with Folk, other than both are forms of Art
Music.

So, world music is an artificial genre (which is, admittedly, true),
but your invented hodgepodge "Art Music" isn't? And in what way is

The term Art Music is an internationally accepted term referring to
popular/traditional music combined with classical music, and is used on
Radio 3.

It might well be used on Radio 3, but I'd be willing to bet it's not
used the way you use it. None of what you're incorporating into "Art
Music" is "popular/traditional music combined with classical music".
Dengue Fever, say, have no classical influence, and the music is rock
based on '60s psychedelia.

world music necessarily "experimental"?

Because the Experimental form of Art Music is creating completely new styles
of music.

This would be new styles of traditional music, right?

World music means "music from anywhere in the world with a different
culture from the record shop selling it". It includes folk (Antongil

NO IT DOES NOT! It means Experimental Art Music. Italian House and Dutch
Techno are not classified as world music.

Twit. "music *styles* from anywhere in the world with a different
culture" - and it should be added "music with songs in non-English
language by non-Anglophone musicians" Techno and house aren't
indigenous to mainland Europe, and unlike, say, Cambodian rock, aren't
genres appropriated by those countries from somewhere else as their
own. They just happen to be house and techno played by people of non-
Anglophone nationalities, with no distinctive cultural elements
linking them to any society.

Vert are described as a "Malagasy folk group"), rock (Cambodian rock,
for example, is based heavily on Western psychedelic rock - indeed

Completely artificial genres, thus experimental, and pretending to be
traditional but using western classical composition, hence Art Music.

Cambodian rock has a pedigree dating to the '60s (that's *why* it's
based on '60s Western rock); Dengue Fever just revived it, without
changing much. It uses no classical composition and doesn't pretend to
be anything other than a tribute to a locally popular interpretation
of Western rock music from the middle of last century.
What it does have is a distinctive character, just as Delta blues has
a distinctive character that sets it apart from Mississippi (how many
's's in Missssissssssippi?) Blues.

Dengue Fever, who won an award for the "best world music of 2006" with
Escape from Dragon House, were formed in San Francisco, and are all
American except from the Khmer lead singer), genuinely traditional
tribal music, pop variants thereon (such as commercial Aboriginal
music), Portugese blues, Greek rembetika - and everything else from
countries outside the Anglo-American sphere of influence, from Edith
Piaf to samba.

Nope. Rembetika is classified as popular music and is part of the blues
sub-genre. It's a new genera that evolved in the 1920's. It's no more World
Music than Jazz or American Blues or Rock and Roll. World Music is an
artificial genre consisting of Experimental Art Music. If the music is
international or foreign, then it is called international or foreign music.

Hey, you're almost getting the hang of this synonym thing. I was
always disappointed that I'm not allowed to be a foreigner in
Australia. :-( I always have to be international or overseas - they
even call their Foreign Office the Department of Indigenous,
International and Multicultural Affairs.

According to your favourite source "Wikipedia", "Many Roots musicians do
not
consider themselves to be folk musicians" Roots music is nothing to do
with
Folk music. It's a blanket term for Blues and related genres.

Just as folk in this sense is a blanket term for traditional music,

Nope. The musicians themselves don't accept such a term to describe their
music,

*Some* roots musicians don't consider themselves folk musicians (which
isn't the same as not "accepting such a term to describe their music")

because the know that Folk refers to Irish Pop Music that developed
in the 1950's.

I very much doubt any of them 'know' any such thing. Roots music by
its nature goes with a strong sense of pride in origins of American,
particularly African-American, culture. What's more they perform in a
country where folk music is associated with Bob Dylan and country
music. All they're doing by regarding the folk music label as not
applicable to them is distinguishing what they're doing as looking
back to the era of blues and overtly Africanised American music, to
distinguish it from the country and rock influence that 'folk' is
associated with in popular consciousness. They aren't making some kind
of rebellious statement,

which can be used instead of or alongside other blanket terms like
roots or world. There's no reason for the labels to be mutually
exclusive.

Nope. The musicians don't accept such terms. Roots is the accepted blanket
term for Blues and related genres, not Folk.

They're blanket terms for different aggregations of genres, but that
doesn't mean they don't have areas of overlap. Blues isn't folk music,
but much of it can be considered Roots music. Irish folk isn't Roots
music, but is folk music. Traditional African-American music predating
the blues era is both.

that matter folk music generally (since you insist that folk music
is
Irish music by definition). Did Bob Dylan use it? I think you're

What's Bob Dylan got to do with it?

Hmm, what does Bob Dylan have to do with folk music? You aren't truly
this clueless, surely? Bob Dylan began his career as a folk singer,
to

So he sang and played Irish Pop music.

<<<No, he sand and played American folk music, which was based on older
Irish folk music.>>>

So it's as I said.

No, he sang and played American folk music.

He sang music based on Irish folk music.

Ultimately, but he certainly didn't sing and play music based on '50s
Irish pop music, as you define 'folk'.

There is no such thing as American folk music. America has not existed long
enough for there to be such a think even if you define folk as meaning
traditional (which is does not since it means popular).

It doesn't take long to form a tradition - there have been plenty of
generations in America's history, and a tradition is something passed
down across generations.

'traditionally Irish' just as they're 'traditionally Spanish'? Folk
music doesn't have to use instruments invented in the country where
it's being played.

Folk music is a 1950's created genre of Irish Popular Music.

Then what was the term being used to refer to before the 1950s? Or
will you evade the answer yet again?

Oh, no, you don't, do you? You don't actually think *River Dance* is
what's meant by the term "Irish folk music"??

It's Irish Pop/Art Music.

<<<But that's what you're calling folk, isn't it?>>>

Because that is what Folk means.

No, Aggy, River Dance is a type of pop musical that tries to pretend
it's folk music - that doesn't make folk music as a genre fake, it

River Dance is Irish Pop/Art Music.

But that's what you're calling folk, isn't it?

It was called British pop.

Everything was called pop then. Pop that just happens to be British
isn't Britpop, and the word "Britpop" wasn't used at all.

Britpop is the name of the genre of British pop music from the mid to late
60's and the music that was based on it.

No it isn't. No one used the word "Britpop" at all before Oasis became
popular.

<<<Did I? Where? You must really be getting desperate to prove me wrong
if you have to invent things I didn't say to do so.>>>

You're squirming.

I'll take this as an admission that you haven't been able to find any
point where I claimed "Rembetika has no Arabic influence".

WRONG! You claming Rembetika had no Arabic influence further up the thread
and then did a complete U-Turn.

"And that was one song pulled from
the genre (and go on as you like about the Greek ancestry of some of
rock's pioneers, the music they played had no more Greek influence
than Misirlou had Arabic influence"

I was making a comparison between the populariser of Misirlou, being
an Arab, and the ancestry of some blues pioneers. The point being that
Misirlou didn't derive Arabic influence from *** Davies, and in the
same way blues didn't derive Greek influence from Johnny Otis. I
suppose this could be an actual mistake on your part rather than an
attempt to twist what I was saying, since people often strike me as
having remarkable difficulty in understanding things in context, but
in the correct context I wasn't saying anything like "Rembetika has no
Arabic influence".

It's not Anglo anything. It's Greek, Jewish, Latin, Irish, French
and
African in origin.

Aggy, I really wish you'd invest in a course in basic English
comprehension. "Anglo-American popular music" - i.e. popular music
from England and America (but conventionally the Anglophone world

Blues did not originated from England or from any Englishman.

generally), the tradition that encompasses most popular music in the
English-speaking world for the past century, regardless of its

Oh, right, and English music's indigenous contribution to popular music
in
the past 100 years is what precisely? SKIFFLE! Yep, that's it. Skiffle
and
nothing more. And then only because the Beatles originated from a
Skiffle
band. That's England's sole indigenous contribution to popular music in
the
past century, and long after Blues had evolved, which clearly isn't
Skiffle.

<<<You're forgetting metal, which derived out of British interpretations
of American blues, but that's beside the point. Read the above again.>>>

Metal may have been invented by the British, but it has nothing
whatsoever
to do with traditional English music,

So what? I've said all along that traditional English musical styles
have no bearing on modern popular music - see my comment about John
Mayall. That doesn't mean the modern popular music wasn't shaped in
Britain and America - pop, rock and metal in both countries (and in
much of the rest of the Western world) owes a lot to the British
invasion, the British blues revival of the '60s and the rock anthems
of the '70s, many also British.

The British blues revival was a revival of AMERICAN music.

You really don't understand how this works, do you? No wonder you
struggle with the idea of world music. When people appropriate
('revive') music from somewhere else and produce their own styles of
music based on it, that music is part of that country's musical
tradition. British blues is British music based on American origins,
just as American blues is American music based on African origins. It
doesn't have to have any kind of relation to British folk music to be
British music.

You're confusing arrangement and style. Given your obsessively
literal
use of language, you shouldn't make that mistake. Arrangement is
quite
literally the way the notes in a piece are arranged - inflection,
speed, instrumentation, accompaniment are all elements of style.

IDIOT! Does arrangement mean using completely different notes? NO!

<<<IDIOT! Did I say it did? NO! It's about playing all the right
notes,>>>

That's what you said when you claimed *** Dale changed all the notes of
Misirlou.

Where did I say that?

Earlier on at the beginning of this thread.

"*** Davies did the song as a one-
string guitar solo - this is not the rembetika style. If the
arrangement was also different as well (i.e. notes changed, added or
removed), then it's hard to see any resemblance at all to the
original."

Taking out of context again, Aggy? And this one much more obviously
deliberate. Firstly, note "*If* the arrangement was also different as
well" (different as well? I must have been mentally deranged when I
wrote that. Either that or a fake impostor wrote it) - which was
specifically in response to *your* claim that *** Davies changed the
arrangement (when what he actually changed was, as I said, the style).
I then defined what "arrangement" meant for your benefit (look up
"i.e.")

Nope. You said the Indian instruments were 2,000 years old.

<<<5,000.>>>

According to who?

Wikipedia and sources therein:

"Before the development of the electric guitar and the use of
synthetic materials, a guitar was defined as being an instrument
having "a long, fretted neck, flat wooden soundboard, ribs, and a flat
back, most often with incurved sides".[1] Instruments similar to the
guitar have been popular for at least 5,000 years. The six string

Right, so there is no mention of India.

This is an introductory paragraph. Read on.

classical guitar first appeared in Spain but was itself the product of
a long and complex history of diverse influences. Like virtually all
other stringed European instruments, the guitar ultimately traces back
thousands of years, via the Middle East, to a common ancient origin
from instruments then known in central Asia and India. It is therefore
very distantly related with contemporary instruments such as the
Iranian tanbur and setar and the Indian sitar. The oldest known
iconographic representation of an instrument displaying all the
essential features of a guitar being played is a 3300 year old stone
carving of a Hittite bard.[2] The modern word, guitar, was adopted

Ah, just as I thought, the idiots editing Wikipedia don't know where the
Hittites lived. And they think that 3300 years ago is 3300 BC, not 1300 BC.

Check your comprehension skills. Nowhere does the article suggest that
the Hittite picture is the 5,000 year old origin of guitars (it says
"the first iconograpogic representation" dates to 3,300 years old -
suggesting that there are older sources of non-pictoral evidence).

The Hittites lived in Asia-Minor which is now Turkey. None of this
contradicts what I have already said. 1300 BC is Mycenaean times. There are
also depictions or remains of Lyres found in Greece dating to 1580 BC and
2800 BC.

What do lyres have to do with guitars apart from being string
instruments?

into English from Spanish guitarra, derived from the Latin word
cithara, which in turn was derived from the earlier Greek word kithara,
[3] which perhaps derives from Persian sihtar.[4] Sihtar itself is

Which is a load of bollocks because the word Kithara appears in Homer which
dates to 400 years before the Persian empire.

So what? You don't think the Persians had a language before they had
an empire? Must have made it hard to build one when all they could do
was mime at each other...

guitar would mysteriously go unknown in the non-Grecian parts of
Europe until someone happened to bring it back from India.

They didn't bring it back from India. It came from Byzantium just like
the
Violin

<<<Wikipedia notes that it reached Europe from South Asia. And since it
was still there nine minutes later it must be true.>>>

CODSWALLOP!

Herodotus refers to Arion playing the Kithara or Guitar at the time of
Perriander in about 600 BC.

So, that's about 700 years later than Hittite depictions of the
instrument, then.

Nope. The earliest Greek depictions of Lyres date to 2800 BC, so we can
conclude the Greeks also had the guitar complete with handle at the same
time the Hittites had it.

Can we? Why?

It has nothing to do with India.

And the name "sitar" is a complete coincidence, of course, as is the

It's a corrupted form of Kithara like Zither. The origin is clearly Greek
since in Macedonian dialect as well as Cypriot and Creatan dialects Kithara
would have been pronounced Jithathar which gives Zither which in India was
corrupted to Sitar.

And the reason for supposing Jithathar/Zithar wasn't corrupted *from*
sitar, and kithara derived from a Greek mispronunciation, is what?

And the Honeymoon Song was among them, was it? Oops, silly me, it was
a British film score.

IDIOT! What on *** are you on about?

"The Honeymoon Song" was written as part of the soundtrack for a
British film set in Spain called, unimaginatively enough, "Honeymoon".
And having listened to it, could you identify exactly what the Greek
elements of this music are? It's very good, but in style it sounds
like an awful lot of instrumental film music from both Britain and
Hollywood.

Phil
.

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