Re: Proms

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could you give an example of this Irish folk music that doesn't use
traditional instruments? Folk music is by definition traditional music

No it isn't. Folk music is by definition Irish pop music.

<<<Not by any definition but yours. Quoth Wikipedia:>>>

Anyone can write what they like in Wikipedia.

Now, now, Aggy, no double standards. Wikipedia proved that RTD
admitted to a cameo in Dr Who, after all. You said so, so it must be
true.

<<<"Traditional music: The original meaning of the term "folk music" was
synonymous with the term "Traditional music", also often including>>>

No it wasn't. It was synonymous with a 1950's/60's attempt to concoct a fake
genre of Irish music that would give the false impression that it was
traditional, but neither was it traditional nor was it even based
predominantly on Irish music.

This was the "original meaning" that was being used before the 1950s,
right?

<<<World Music and Roots music; the term "Traditional music" was given>>>

World Music is a genre of Experimental Art Music and another artificial
genre. It has nothing to do with Folk, other than both are forms of Art
Music.

So, world music is an artificial genre (which is, admittedly, true),
but your invented hodgepodge "Art Music" isn't? And in what way is
world music necessarily "experimental"?

World music means "music from anywhere in the world with a different
culture from the record shop selling it". It includes folk (Antongil
Vert are described as a "Malagasy folk group"), rock (Cambodian rock,
for example, is based heavily on Western psychedelic rock - indeed
Dengue Fever, who won an award for the "best world music of 2006" with
Escape from Dragon House, were formed in San Francisco, and are all
American except from the Khmer lead singer), genuinely traditional
tribal music, pop variants thereon (such as commercial Aboriginal
music), Portugese blues, Greek rembetika - and everything else from
countries outside the Anglo-American sphere of influence, from Edith
Piaf to samba.

According to your favourite source "Wikipedia", "Many Roots musicians do not
consider themselves to be folk musicians" Roots music is nothing to do with
Folk music. It's a blanket term for Blues and related genres.

Just as folk in this sense is a blanket term for traditional music,
which can be used instead of or alongside other blanket terms like
roots or world. There's no reason for the labels to be mutually
exclusive.

<<<its more specific meaning to distinguish it from the other definitions
that "Folk music" is now considered to encompass.

Folk music can also describe a particular kind of popular music which
is based on traditional music. In contemporary times, this kind of
folk music is often performed by professional musicians. Related
genres include Folk rock and Progressive folk music.

In American culture, folk music refers to the American folk music
revival, music exemplified by such musicians as Woody Guthrie, who is
most noted for "This Land is Your Land." Pete Seeger, Ramblin' Jack
Elliot, Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, and Joan Baez, who popularized and
encouraged the lyrical style in the 1950s and 1960s "

I'm using the term in a way that covers all of these, but primarily
the traditional and American versions. You seem to be basing yours on
a garbled understanding of the second definition, which for some
reason you've decided to confine to Ireland.>>>

I have not confused it to Ireland. It is clearly and obviously derived from
Irish music.

And you claim to have learned this from looking in ... an Irish record
shop. Try an American or Australian record shop (oops, forgot you've
never been outside Northampton, except apparently to Ireland) and the
folk music is American or Australian folk.

that matter folk music generally (since you insist that folk music is
Irish music by definition). Did Bob Dylan use it? I think you're

What's Bob Dylan got to do with it?

Hmm, what does Bob Dylan have to do with folk music? You aren't truly
this clueless, surely? Bob Dylan began his career as a folk singer, to

So he sang and played Irish Pop music.

<<<No, he sand and played American folk music, which was based on older
Irish folk music.>>>

So it's as I said.

No, he sang and played American folk music.

<<<compositions that made no use at all of instruments created in the
'60s. So you are simply wrong.>>>

They still used instruments that were not traditionally Irish.

Most folk music in most of the world uses guitars. Why aren't they
'traditionally Irish' just as they're 'traditionally Spanish'? Folk
music doesn't have to use instruments invented in the country where
it's being played.

Oh, no, you don't, do you? You don't actually think *River Dance* is
what's meant by the term "Irish folk music"??

It's Irish Pop/Art Music.

<<<But that's what you're calling folk, isn't it?>>>

Because that is what Folk means.

No, Aggy, River Dance is a type of pop musical that tries to pretend
it's folk music - that doesn't make folk music as a genre fake, it
just makes River Dance (which is actually mostly based on American
music) fake, and no one with any knowledge of Irish or folk music
would suggest that River Dance is folk.

<<<94 or thereabouts - okay, I suppose that's early rather than late
'90s.>>>

and

based on 60's Britpop which is the name given to music created by The
Beatles, The Stones, The Who etc. in the mid to late 60's.

<<<No, the term you're thinking of is "The British Invasion", led mainly
by these bands, the Kinks, and the early metal pioneers. The term
Britpop wasn't in currency at any point in this period.>>>

It was called British pop.

Everything was called pop then. Pop that just happens to be British
isn't Britpop, and the word "Britpop" wasn't used at all.

They sound similar because the modes were copied from Greeks and Jews who
emigrated to America.

No, they sound similar because guitarists in several areas happened on
the same sorts of sounds, and found that they worked.

More IGNORANCE! The dromi used in Rembetika such as Hijaz, Hijazkiar,
Houseini, Huzam, Rast, Segah, etc. have Arabic names. Now I wonder why
that
is. Could it be that it was influenced by Arabic tonal music. Could it
be
that the original instruments used quarter tones like Arabic music. You
haven't got a clue about what you are talking about so I suggest that
you
shut up.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Because Rembetika is
largely of Arabic origin, the fact that it was turned into a rock song
by an Arab makes it more Greek??

That sounds like you have made a complete U-Turn. First you say Rembetika
has no Arabic influence,

<<<Did I? Where? You must really be getting desperate to prove me wrong
if you have to invent things I didn't say to do so.>>>

You're squirming.

I'll take this as an admission that you haven't been able to find any
point where I claimed "Rembetika has no Arabic influence".

Oh, and Aggy, STOP SQUIRMING!

<<<such musical forms as arpeggios and tones like baritone and tenor, but
that doesn't mean we write songs in Italian. It just indicates that
Italian is the language used by the people who developed the Western
musical vocabulary. It doesn't suggest that blues is derived from
Italian opera music because it shares the same vocabulary. It sounds
from your examples as though something similar is the case in
rembetika, and the fact that the actual songs themselves are in Greek
or Turkish rather reinforces my point - it flags up the fact that the
Arabic musical vocabulary has a different origin from the language of
that particular style of music.>>>

YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

Arabic music is polytonal and based on 24 tones per octave whereas western
music is based on 12 tones per octave and its composition is based on
harmony whereas Greek and Arabic music are base on modality. Both Arabic
(except for the drum beats) and Western music derive from Byzantine music
which ultimately derives from Pythagoras and the scales and modes of the
ancient Greeks.

Steve's already taken up this cause.

It's not Anglo anything. It's Greek, Jewish, Latin, Irish, French and
African in origin.

Aggy, I really wish you'd invest in a course in basic English
comprehension. "Anglo-American popular music" - i.e. popular music
from England and America (but conventionally the Anglophone world

Blues did not originated from England or from any Englishman.

generally), the tradition that encompasses most popular music in the
English-speaking world for the past century, regardless of its

Oh, right, and English music's indigenous contribution to popular music in
the past 100 years is what precisely? SKIFFLE! Yep, that's it. Skiffle and
nothing more. And then only because the Beatles originated from a Skiffle
band. That's England's sole indigenous contribution to popular music in
the
past century, and long after Blues had evolved, which clearly isn't
Skiffle.

<<<You're forgetting metal, which derived out of British interpretations
of American blues, but that's beside the point. Read the above again.>>>

Metal may have been invented by the British, but it has nothing whatsoever
to do with traditional English music,

So what? I've said all along that traditional English musical styles
have no bearing on modern popular music - see my comment about John
Mayall. That doesn't mean the modern popular music wasn't shaped in
Britain and America - pop, rock and metal in both countries (and in
much of the rest of the Western world) owes a lot to the British
invasion, the British blues revival of the '60s and the rock anthems
of the '70s, many also British.

You're confusing arrangement and style. Given your obsessively literal
use of language, you shouldn't make that mistake. Arrangement is quite
literally the way the notes in a piece are arranged - inflection,
speed, instrumentation, accompaniment are all elements of style.

IDIOT! Does arrangement mean using completely different notes? NO!

<<<IDIOT! Did I say it did? NO! It's about playing all the right notes,>>>

That's what you said when you claimed *** Dale changed all the notes of
Misirlou.

Where did I say that?

Nope. You said the Indian instruments were 2,000 years old.

<<<5,000.>>>

According to who?

Wikipedia and sources therein:

"Before the development of the electric guitar and the use of
synthetic materials, a guitar was defined as being an instrument
having "a long, fretted neck, flat wooden soundboard, ribs, and a flat
back, most often with incurved sides".[1] Instruments similar to the
guitar have been popular for at least 5,000 years. The six string
classical guitar first appeared in Spain but was itself the product of
a long and complex history of diverse influences. Like virtually all
other stringed European instruments, the guitar ultimately traces back
thousands of years, via the Middle East, to a common ancient origin
from instruments then known in central Asia and India. It is therefore
very distantly related with contemporary instruments such as the
Iranian tanbur and setar and the Indian sitar. The oldest known
iconographic representation of an instrument displaying all the
essential features of a guitar being played is a 3300 year old stone
carving of a Hittite bard.[2] The modern word, guitar, was adopted
into English from Spanish guitarra, derived from the Latin word
cithara, which in turn was derived from the earlier Greek word kithara,
[3] which perhaps derives from Persian sihtar.[4] Sihtar itself is
related to the Indian instrument, the sitar.


Illustration from a Carolingian Psalter from the 9th century, showing
a guitar-like plucked instrument.The modern guitar is descended from
the Roman cithara brought by the Romans to Hispania around 40 AD, and
further adapted and developed with the arrival of the four-string oud,
brought by the Moors after their conquest of the Iberian peninsula in
the 8th century.[5] Elsewhere in Europe, the indigenous six-string
Scandinavian lut (lute), had gained in popularity in areas of Viking
incursions across the continent. Often depicted in carvings c. 800 AD,
the Norse hero Gunther (also known as Gunnar), played a lute with his
toes as he lay dying in a snake-pit, in the legend of Siegfried.[6] By
1200 AD, the four string "guitar" had evolved into two types: the
guitarra morisca (Moorish guitar) which had a rounded back, wide
fingerboard and several soundholes, and the guitarra latina (Latin
guitar) which resembled the modern guitar with one soundhole and a
narrower neck.[7]"


Where is the evidence for such instruments and how the
were tuned?

See above. Why does how they were tuned have any bearing? you're not
going to try and claim that the Greeks invented tuning keys, are you?

guitar would mysteriously go unknown in the non-Grecian parts of
Europe until someone happened to bring it back from India.

They didn't bring it back from India. It came from Byzantium just like the
Violin

<<<Wikipedia notes that it reached Europe from South Asia. And since it
was still there nine minutes later it must be true.>>>

CODSWALLOP!

Herodotus refers to Arion playing the Kithara or Guitar at the time of
Perriander in about 600 BC.

So, that's about 700 years later than Hittite depictions of the
instrument, then.

It has nothing to do with India.

And the name "sitar" is a complete coincidence, of course, as is the
fact that derivations progressively similar to 'guitar' are used to
describe the instrument throughout the Middle East and Europe.

like a double bass.

<<<As I say, there's a Khmer violin (that's even the English translation)
that has a long history and the region - and you're not going to claim
that this was derived from Greek or Byzantine instruments because its
appearance is very different; it's a pole attached to a wooden
sounding box with a string pulled taught from the top to the bottom>>>

The Byzantine violin looks exactly like a modern guitar played vertically
with a bow.

<<<like a bow string, and wound around a violin bow. You play by moving
the bow horizontally as with a violin, while holding the string down
to change the note rather like a guitar.and moving the bow up and
down.>>>

Sounds like an instrument from a Skiffle band.

Oh, dear, the Cambodians invented skiffle - so much for English
traditional music...



The Beatles also covered Miks Theodorakis.

The Honeymoon Song (1959), released on the Beatles Live at the BBC album.
This is the stuff The Beatles were playing before they became famous.

<<<*One* of his songs? This is meant to denote drawing their material
largely from rembetika (notwithstanding that Theodorakis didn't
actually play rembitaka,

You are talking COMPLETE AND UTTER BOLLOCKS as usual.

Theodorakis wrote Rembetika songs for Mpithikotsis and others and both
performed together.

And the Honeymoon Song was among them, was it? Oops, silly me, it was
a British film score.

<<<and your original claim was that rembetika
led to rock, not pop).>>>

WRONG. I said it led to both.

Silly me. Of course, Greeks invented everything.

Which pieces? Did they cite him as an inspiration they did the rock
'n' roll acts they covered, or just like the music?

Yep, more or less. The Honeymoon Song is apparently one of Paul
McCartney's
favourites. He also produced it for Mary Hopkins first album.

<<<Okay, but it's still a huge stretch to call one song the formative
influence of the Beatles' sound.>>>

Try composers. It's obvious McCartney was influenced by Theodorakis and the
Entechno genera when he went classical.

What on Earth does McCartney's classical influences have to do with
the Beatles? The only song the Beatles took from Theodorakis was one
of the ones he did in the style of a British film score.

Phil
.

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