Re: Proms


<pbowles@xxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1a4c62c7-7ce1-4775-9b5e-e75f98af782b@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 31 Jul, 13:43, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

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> On 30 Jul, 19:26, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> <pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

>>news:f8d5c0a4-a479-4536-aa9e-0726ccfee013@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> > On 30 Jul, 12:03, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> <pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

>> >>news:6fa27f16-8066-4362-b8e6-72aaba138ece@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> > On 30 Jul, 02:54, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >> <pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

>> >> >>news:c836c53e-c966-49a8-951a-d0a39671be7c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> >> > On 29 Jul, 20:45, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> "Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wilson2004nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
>> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> message

>> >> >> >>news:dQHjk.39135$3L5.24445@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> >> >> > "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> >> >> >news:PamdneKk0deyIxPVnZ2dnUVZ8s_inZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> >>On 30 Jul, 12:03, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> <pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

>> >>news:6fa27f16-8066-4362-b8e6-72aaba138ece@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> > On 30 Jul, 02:54, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> >> <pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

>> >> >>news:c836c53e-c966-49a8-951a-d0a39671be7c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> >> > On 29 Jul, 20:45, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> >> >> >> > wrote:
>> >> >> >> "Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wilson2004nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote
>> >> >> >> in
>> >> >> >> message

>> >> >> >>news:dQHjk.39135$3L5.24445@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> >> >> > "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> >> >> >news:PamdneKk0deyIxPVnZ2dnUVZ8s_inZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

> could you give an example of this Irish folk music that doesn't use
> traditional instruments? Folk music is by definition traditional music

No it isn't. Folk music is by definition Irish pop music.

<<<Not by any definition but yours. Quoth Wikipedia:>>>

Anyone can write what they like in Wikipedia.

<<<"Traditional music: The original meaning of the term "folk music" was
synonymous with the term "Traditional music", also often including>>>

No it wasn't. It was synonymous with a 1950's/60's attempt to concoct a fake genre of Irish music that would give the false impression that it was traditional, but neither was it traditional nor was it even based predominantly on Irish music. It was an Irish form of Art Music based on Balkan dance music and attempted to do what Theodorakis and Hatzidakis, Xarhakos and Hiotis did with traditional Greek music, but since the Irish had almost nothing to work with of their own since their music wasn't very diverse they decided to pinch music from the Balkans and combine it with 18th century drinking songs.

<<<World Music and Roots music; the term "Traditional music" was given>>>

World Music is a genre of Experimental Art Music and another artificial genre. It has nothing to do with Folk, other than both are forms of Art Music.

According to your favourite source "Wikipedia", "Many Roots musicians do not consider themselves to be folk musicians" Roots music is nothing to do with Folk music. It's a blanket term for Blues and related genres.

<<<its more specific meaning to distinguish it from the other definitions
that "Folk music" is now considered to encompass.

Folk music can also describe a particular kind of popular music which
is based on traditional music. In contemporary times, this kind of
folk music is often performed by professional musicians. Related
genres include Folk rock and Progressive folk music.

In American culture, folk music refers to the American folk music
revival, music exemplified by such musicians as Woody Guthrie, who is
most noted for "This Land is Your Land." Pete Seeger, Ramblin' Jack
Elliot, Bob Dylan, Phil Ochs, and Joan Baez, who popularized and
encouraged the lyrical style in the 1950s and 1960s "

I'm using the term in a way that covers all of these, but primarily
the traditional and American versions. You seem to be basing yours on
a garbled understanding of the second definition, which for some
reason you've decided to confine to Ireland.>>>

I have not confused it to Ireland. It is clearly and obviously derived from Irish music.

Specifically Irish
pop music influenced by Eastern European dance music.

> - I strongly suspect you're confusing something else with folk. Either
> that or you think The Pogues are the sum total of Irish folk music.

The Pogues are Irish pop

<<<Folk-rock, I believe they're generally classed as. Which basically>>.

Irish Pop.

<<<means playing a guitar and singing while drunk, I think.>>>

Yep, that's what most Irish music sounds like because it's based on a revival of 18th century drinking songs combined with modern Balkan dance music.

>> > that matter folk music generally (since you insist that folk music is
>> > Irish music by definition). Did Bob Dylan use it? I think you're

>> What's Bob Dylan got to do with it?

> Hmm, what does Bob Dylan have to do with folk music? You aren't truly
> this clueless, surely? Bob Dylan began his career as a folk singer, to

So he sang and played Irish Pop music.

<<<No, he sand and played American folk music, which was based on older
Irish folk music.>>>

So it's as I said.

> (and probably wrote Positively 4th Street to get back at them). Tom

Don't know it. Not a Bob Dylan fan.

> Lehrer took the piss out of him with a song called "The Folk Song
> Army", which might give you a hint.

Irish Pop music then.

<<<No, he was taking the piss out of folky American protest songs while
doing an impression of Bob Dylan's voice.>>>



> BTW, on the subject of Tom Lehrer, he wrote The Irish Ballad parodying
> Irish folk music in the 1950s, and it was old music when he introduced
> the song in a 1960s music hall routine with a diatribe against folk
> music generally, citing examples of folk songs that far predated the
> 1950s or 60s.

Irish pop songs that predated the 1950's or 60's.

<<<By a century or more in some cases, probably. Stop wriggling, Aggy.
The defintion you gave for folk was of artificially concocted Irish
pop music beginning in the '50s and '60s, and based heavily around an
instrument that didn't reach Ireland until the early '60s. I've
presented hard evidence that people were using the term 'folk music'
much earlier than that, and to describe much older traditional>>>

No they weren't. The only people using the term were using it to refer to Irish popular music. Nobody used to it refer to music which either did not originate from the Irish or was not influenced by Irish music.

<<<compositions that made no use at all of instruments created in the
'60s. So you are simply wrong.>>>

They still used instruments that were not traditionally Irish.

Demotika is Greek popular dance music which dates back over 200 years. It
shouldn't be translated as popular even though that is what Demotika means
because Laika is also Greek popular music, but that was invented in the
1950's and evolved initially from Rembetika which dates to the 20's and
Latin and Indian film music.



>> > getting a bit confused - the fact that the instrument didn't exist in
>> > Ireland earlier than the 1960s doesn't mean the music didn't; it just

>> The music was artificially concocted. It's based primarily on Balkan
>> dance
>> music mixed with Irish dance music.

> Oh, no, you don't, do you? You don't actually think *River Dance* is
> what's meant by the term "Irish folk music"??

It's Irish Pop/Art Music.

<<<But that's what you're calling folk, isn't it?>>>

Because that is what Folk means.

>> >> You are an idiot. Latin is short for the Latin American style of >> >> music
>> >> and
>> >> dance.

>> > i.e., not rock music that happens to have Spanish words. Richie
>> > Valens' stuff is about as Latin as Queen's. La Bamba did not come >> > from
>> > a Mexican musical tradition - it was rock'n'roll, the 'get up and

>> IDIOT! You clearly have no idea what the Latin genre is. I suggest you
>> watch
>> Bruce Forsyth's documentary on the subject.

> A documentary on the subject might be interesting, actually. Have
> there been any that don't feature Bruce Forsythe?

FOOL!

<<I'm a FOOL because I don't like Bruce Forsythe? Okay, I'll grant that
he might actually be a good documentary presenter - Griff Rhys Jones
turned out to be. But his voice sets my teeth on edge just thinking
about him.>>>

You are a fool because you refuse to educate yourself with the best documentary on the subject.

> calling the Beatles Britpop, a subgenre created in the late '90s,
> because they wrote pop music and were British - or for that matter

YOU ARE AN IDIOT! Contemporary Britpop was created in the early 90's

<<<94 or thereabouts - okay, I suppose that's early rather than late
'90s.>>>

and
based on 60's Britpop which is the name given to music created by The
Beatles, The Stones, The Who etc. in the mid to late 60's.

<<<No, the term you're thinking of is "The British Invasion", led mainly
by these bands, the Kinks, and the early metal pioneers. The term
Britpop wasn't in currency at any point in this period.>>>

It was called British pop.

>> Greek American Johnny Otis was one of the early major R&B producers and
>> pioneers.

> So what? He didn't draw on Greek music, any more than John Mayall

Yes he did, but you wouldn't know it because you don't know the Rembetika
genre. Why do you think there are so many similarities between American
Blues and Greek Blues even though they evolved continents apart before there
were even recordings made?

<<<Oh no, you're not using the same illogic you use with language, are
you? Don't trace the established origins, just invent explanations for
superficial similarities. They sound similar because they were
designed with the purpose of evoking similar emotions and discussing>>>

TWADDLE! Why weren't they Romantic (classical) then?

They sound similar because the modes were copied from Greeks and Jews who emigrated to America.

<<<often downbeat themes - and to do that they had to have the sounds
that instinctively evoke melancholy and a sense of squalor, which are
the same wherever people are. Same reason percussion has been popular
dance music in everything from African tribal rituals to nightclubs,
despite little or no family relation.>>>

And that's a load of nonsense. The Drums in Latin music can be traced back to the Arabs, and those in Greek music can be traced back to ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia, which is also where African drumbeats derived from. Whereas the drum beats in classical music derive from the Romans who got them from the Greeks.

American Blues was based in Greek and Jewish
Blues combined with Irish music and Gospel. African Americans copied the
sounds of Greeks, Jews and Irish people they heard playing in the same
ghettos.


>> More IGNORANCE! The dromi used in Rembetika such as Hijaz, Hijazkiar,
>> Houseini, Huzam, Rast, Segah, etc. have Arabic names. Now I wonder why
>> that
>> is. Could it be that it was influenced by Arabic tonal music. Could it >> be
>> that the original instruments used quarter tones like Arabic music. You
>> haven't got a clue about what you are talking about so I suggest that >> you
>> shut up.

> I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Because Rembetika is
> largely of Arabic origin, the fact that it was turned into a rock song
> by an Arab makes it more Greek??

That sounds like you have made a complete U-Turn. First you say Rembetika
has no Arabic influence,

<<<Did I? Where? You must really be getting desperate to prove me wrong
if you have to invent things I didn't say to do so.>>>

You're squirming.

> Firstly, the language used may be Arabic, but Rembetika began in

IDIOT! You don't have a clue do you. The language used is mainly Greek but a
large amount of the original songs were written in Turkish by their Greek
composers.

<<<I meant the language of the notation. We talk about octaves, describe>>>

You are still wrong.

<<<such musical forms as arpeggios and tones like baritone and tenor, but
that doesn't mean we write songs in Italian. It just indicates that
Italian is the language used by the people who developed the Western
musical vocabulary. It doesn't suggest that blues is derived from
Italian opera music because it shares the same vocabulary. It sounds
from your examples as though something similar is the case in
rembetika, and the fact that the actual songs themselves are in Greek
or Turkish rather reinforces my point - it flags up the fact that the
Arabic musical vocabulary has a different origin from the language of
that particular style of music.>>>

YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

Arabic music is polytonal and based on 24 tones per octave whereas western music is based on 12 tones per octave and its composition is based on harmony whereas Greek and Arabic music are base on modality. Both Arabic (except for the drum beats) and Western music derive from Byzantine music which ultimately derives from Pythagoras and the scales and modes of the ancient Greeks.

>> It's not Anglo anything. It's Greek, Jewish, Latin, Irish, French and
>> African in origin.

> Aggy, I really wish you'd invest in a course in basic English
> comprehension. "Anglo-American popular music" - i.e. popular music
> from England and America (but conventionally the Anglophone world

Blues did not originated from England or from any Englishman.

> generally), the tradition that encompasses most popular music in the
> English-speaking world for the past century, regardless of its

Oh, right, and English music's indigenous contribution to popular music in
the past 100 years is what precisely? SKIFFLE! Yep, that's it. Skiffle and
nothing more. And then only because the Beatles originated from a Skiffle
band. That's England's sole indigenous contribution to popular music in the
past century, and long after Blues had evolved, which clearly isn't Skiffle.

<<<You're forgetting metal, which derived out of British interpretations
of American blues, but that's beside the point. Read the above again.>>>

Metal may have been invented by the British, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with traditional English music, which culminated in Skiffle and songs like "When I'm Cleaning Windows", and the Dad's Army theme "Who Do You Think You Are Kidding Mister Hitler" and finally died with the last of the Music Halls. The last traditional English song I can remeber that has any kind of fame is the theme to the film "Up Pompeii" which is Music Hall. That's English music for you, "The Good Old Days" series on the BBC sums it all up.

<<<I'm not making any claims for the English originating popular music -
but it is in England and America that the 'popular music' of the
English-speaking world was popularised. That's what's meant by "Anglo->>>

Popular music of the English speaking word which originated not from English music but from Latin, Greek, Jewish, French, Gospel and Irish music which culminated in the creation of Blues and Rock and Roll.

<<<American popular music", and it's not a phrase I invented. If you>>>

No. It is plainly just "American" popular music. The English just copied it.

If you are talking about Pop, then that clearly is a later development by the Beatles which includes clear Greek and Indian influences. At the same time there was Eurobeat which developed from Latin, European popular music and classical, and ultimately that became Dance Music.

<<<prefer I could call it Western popular music, but there are plenty of
European musical forms that don't have strong ties to the music of the
US and Britain.>>>

What music from Britain? Where are the influences from Music Hall and Skiffle?

> You're confusing arrangement and style. Given your obsessively literal
> use of language, you shouldn't make that mistake. Arrangement is quite
> literally the way the notes in a piece are arranged - inflection,
> speed, instrumentation, accompaniment are all elements of style.

IDIOT! Does arrangement mean using completely different notes? NO!

<<<IDIOT! Did I say it did? NO! It's about playing all the right notes,>>>

That's what you said when you claimed *** Dale changed all the notes of Misirlou.

<<<but not necessarily in the right order.>>>

TWADDLE! That's Eric Morecombe.

> in this case, millennia before he actually got to India, whereupon the

Nope. You said the Indian instruments were 2,000 years old.

<<<5,000.>>>

According to who? Where is the evidence for such instruments and how the were tuned?

> guitar would mysteriously go unknown in the non-Grecian parts of
> Europe until someone happened to bring it back from India.

They didn't bring it back from India. It came from Byzantium just like the
Violin

<<<Wikipedia notes that it reached Europe from South Asia. And since it
was still there nine minutes later it must be true.>>>

CODSWALLOP!

Herodotus refers to Arion playing the Kithara or Guitar at the time of Perriander in about 600 BC. It has nothing to do with India. It's invention dates to Mycenaean times when stings were strung across a turtle shell with a handle attached to it.

which was originally the same shape as a guitar and played vertically
like a double bass.

<<<As I say, there's a Khmer violin (that's even the English translation)
that has a long history and the region - and you're not going to claim
that this was derived from Greek or Byzantine instruments because its
appearance is very different; it's a pole attached to a wooden
sounding box with a string pulled taught from the top to the bottom>>>

The Byzantine violin looks exactly like a modern guitar played vertically with a bow.

<<<like a bow string, and wound around a violin bow. You play by moving
the bow horizontally as with a violin, while holding the string down
to change the note rather like a guitar.and moving the bow up and
down.>>>

Sounds like an instrument from a Skiffle band.


>> The Beatles also covered Miks Theodorakis.

The Honeymoon Song (1959), released on the Beatles Live at the BBC album.
This is the stuff The Beatles were playing before they became famous.

<<<*One* of his songs? This is meant to denote drawing their material
largely from rembetika (notwithstanding that Theodorakis didn't
actually play rembitaka,

You are talking COMPLETE AND UTTER BOLLOCKS as usual.

Theodorakis wrote Rembetika songs for Mpithikotsis and others and both performed together.

<<<and your original claim was that rembetika
led to rock, not pop).>>>

WRONG. I said it led to both.



> Which pieces? Did they cite him as an inspiration they did the rock
> 'n' roll acts they covered, or just like the music?

Yep, more or less. The Honeymoon Song is apparently one of Paul McCartney's
favourites. He also produced it for Mary Hopkins first album.

<<<Okay, but it's still a huge stretch to call one song the formative
influence of the Beatles' sound.>>>

Try composers. It's obvious McCartney was influenced by Theodorakis and the Entechno genera when he went classical.

>> > Where on earth do you find "orchestral harmonies" of any sort in
>> > computer music? It doesn't even use instruments other than percussion
>> > and the computers themselves!

>> Once more you don't know what you are talking about. You probably don't
>> even
>> know what a chord is.

> I play guitar, Aggy. It's quite helpful to know what a chord is.

Well that's your problem then. You play guitar so you think you know
everything there is to know about music.

<<<FOOL! I play guitar because I like guitar music - and have a
particular interest in the history of its development. That's where my
knowledge of the subject comes from - and while I may have missed the
Forsythe documentary (if I'd known about it I might have watched it
despite the presenter), I have watched a number of excellent series on
the history of blues, country, and Western pop music generally
(except, admittedly, for electronic and rap stuff, though I picked up>>>

Oh well, Bruce Forsyth explained where all that came from also, and showed that his generation and his predecessors originated break dancing.

<<<the background to the latter from National Geographic) among other
sources, sources you're plainly ignorant of.>>>

You mean sources you don't understand or are completely ignorant.

.

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