Re: Proms

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Rock and blues aren't pop. Is Rebel Rouser a classical piece?
The
Supernatural? Guitar Boogie?

Classical = not pop, not rock, not blues, not folk, not art
music,
not
jazz, not any derivatives of any of the earlier.

So acid is classical? Easy listening, such as Val Doonican, is
classical?

Acid what? Jazz, House, what? Easy listening is derived from folk.
Folk
being specifically Irish pop music (a completely artificial genera
invented
in the 50's and 60's).

There are entire genres of bluegrass and American and Australian

Bluegrass is African American. Actually its origin is French just like
Rap,
but it has nothing to do with Folk. Folk is Irish pop music concocted
in
the
50's and 60's

No it isn't.

which uses instruments that weren't invented until the 30's.

Which instruments are those

Irish Bouzouki. Flat backed version of the Greek Bouzouki (c. 1930) which
was brought to Ireland by Irish sailors in the 1950's.

Okay, and how much Irish folk actually uses this instrument? Or for

It's the main accompanying instrument. Barley any, (and probably none) of
the instruments used in Irish folk are traditional Irish instruments.

Barely any Thai food is made without chillis. That doesn't mean Thai
food didn't exist before chillis were introduced to the region. And
could you give an example of this Irish folk music that doesn't use
traditional instruments? Folk music is by definition traditional music
- I strongly suspect you're confusing something else with folk. Either
that or you think The Pogues are the sum total of Irish folk music.

that matter folk music generally (since you insist that folk music is
Irish music by definition). Did Bob Dylan use it? I think you're

What's Bob Dylan got to do with it?

Hmm, what does Bob Dylan have to do with folk music? You aren't truly
this clueless, surely? Bob Dylan began his career as a folk singer, to
the extent that he annoyed the folk establishment by going electric
(and probably wrote Positively 4th Street to get back at them). Tom
Lehrer took the piss out of him with a song called "The Folk Song
Army", which might give you a hint.

BTW, on the subject of Tom Lehrer, he wrote The Irish Ballad parodying
Irish folk music in the 1950s, and it was old music when he introduced
the song in a 1960s music hall routine with a diatribe against folk
music generally, citing examples of folk songs that far predated the
1950s or 60s.

getting a bit confused - the fact that the instrument didn't exist in
Ireland earlier than the 1960s doesn't mean the music didn't; it just

The music was artificially concocted. It's based primarily on Balkan dance
music mixed with Irish dance music.

Oh, no, you don't, do you? You don't actually think *River Dance* is
what's meant by the term "Irish folk music"??

"Ancestor"? Aggy, ancestors come first. Modern pop began with the
Beatles, who didn't have Latin influences

Modern pop began with The Beatles, Cliff Richard, Buddy Holly and
Ritchie
Valens, to name but a few. You remember La Bamba don't you? Pop had
plenty
of Latin influences.

No, Aggy, Latin is not "songs with Spanish words" - Las Palabras di
Amor, say, is not a Latin song. Nor is it "songs sung by Mexican-
Americans".

You are an idiot. Latin is short for the Latin American style of music
and
dance.

i.e., not rock music that happens to have Spanish words. Richie
Valens' stuff is about as Latin as Queen's. La Bamba did not come from
a Mexican musical tradition - it was rock'n'roll, the 'get up and

IDIOT! You clearly have no idea what the Latin genre is. I suggest you watch
Bruce Forsyth's documentary on the subject.

A documentary on the subject might be interesting, actually. Have
there been any that don't feature Bruce Forsythe?

dance' music of its day, with castanets. It may well have had a part
in defining the Latin scene, but the "Latin American style of music
and dance" you claim as an ancestor of pop music didn't exist until La
Bamba came along, if then, Moreover "Latin" is not a catch-all, and

BOLLOCKS! You don't know what you are talking about as usual.

No, Latin really isn't a catch-all. Calling all music written by Latin
Americans (or their descendants, in Valens' case) Latin is like
calling the Beatles Britpop, a subgenre created in the late '90s,
because they wrote pop music and were British - or for that matter
defining Irish folk music as any music made by Irish folk (like that
traditional Irish ditty "The Boys Are Back in Town").

Americans Blues was primarily based on Jewish Blues,

Hence all the prominent American Jews among its pioneers, like Robert
Johnson, Blind Boy Fuller, Sonny Boy Williamson...no, wait, they
weren't Jewish. Silly me. Did New Orleans even have a prominent Greek
presence?

Greek American Johnny Otis was one of the early major R&B producers and
pioneers.

So what? He didn't draw on Greek music, any more than John Mayall
played English-influenced music because he was English.

Even Misirlou didn't register outside the Greek community
until it was turned into an American rock'n'roll song (and by a
Lebanese Arab at that), despite being hugely popular within the Greek
community for 35 years before that. And that was one song pulled from
the genre (and go on as you like about the Greek ancestry of some of
rock's pioneers, the music they played had no more Greek influence
than Misirlou had Arabic influence).

More IGNORANCE! The dromi used in Rembetika such as Hijaz, Hijazkiar,
Houseini, Huzam, Rast, Segah, etc. have Arabic names. Now I wonder why that
is. Could it be that it was influenced by Arabic tonal music. Could it be
that the original instruments used quarter tones like Arabic music. You
haven't got a clue about what you are talking about so I suggest that you
shut up.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Because Rembetika is
largely of Arabic origin, the fact that it was turned into a rock song
by an Arab makes it more Greek??

Firstly, the language used may be Arabic, but Rembetika began in
Turkey - where presumably they use Arabic musical notation. It has no
connection with Arab ethnicity, so whatever bizarre connection you're
trying to draw fails on that basis alone.

Maybe the popularity of this
music within your community gives you a skewed perspective, but Greek
music has provided no more than a very occasional source of pilfered
lyrics in the grand scheme of Anglo-American popular music of the past

POPPY***!

It's not Anglo anything. It's Greek, Jewish, Latin, Irish, French and
African in origin.

Aggy, I really wish you'd invest in a course in basic English
comprehension. "Anglo-American popular music" - i.e. popular music
from England and America (but conventionally the Anglophone world
generally), the tradition that encompasses most popular music in the
English-speaking world for the past century, regardless of its
origins. What I'm pointing out is that Greek input into this body of
music has been marginal; a couple of catchy songs here and there, but
nothing genre-forming or especially influential.

His version was done in a Greek blues style because it was a Greek
Rembetika
song using a Surf Music arrangement.

Okay, Aggy, so what exactly do you understand by the word "style", or
indeed the word "arrangement"? *** Davies did the song as a one-
string guitar solo - this is not the rembetika style. If the
arrangement was also different as well (i.e. notes changed, added or
removed), then it's hard to see any resemblance at all to the
original.

Arrangement doesn't mean changing the notes you moron. Arrangement is how
the notes are inflected and accompanied depending on what instrument they
are played on.

You're confusing arrangement and style. Given your obsessively literal
use of language, you shouldn't make that mistake. Arrangement is quite
literally the way the notes in a piece are arranged - inflection,
speed, instrumentation, accompaniment are all elements of style.

Your confusion on that point aside, the important point is that what
made the popular version of Misirlou a rock song - playing it as a
guitar solo, *was not an element in the Greek version*. How on Earth
do you suppose that changing the song's style *from* Rembetika *to*
rock represents rembetika influence *on* rock?

American instrument (an electric guitar solo) - there's nothing Greek

The guitar isn't an American instrument.

The electric guitar is. And that was derivative of Spanish forms of
guitar. Incudentally, similar instruments seem to have been devised in
a number of places - there's a very similar Khmer instrument
(interestingly, the Khmers seem to have used a lot of string
instruments since at least the 11th Century; thiey've got things that
look entirely different to Western counterparts that are played like
and produce similar effects to harps and violins, as well as their odd-
shaped guitars). In fact, a brief browse of Wikipedia suggests that
instruments like this from India (from which Cambodia derived its
ancient culture) may actually have been ancestral to Western guitars
millennia earlier.

The ancestors of the guitar came from ancient Greece. If there is anything
similar in India then it was brought the by Alexander the Great.

Don't be silly. The way you tell it, Alexander would have had to have
carried the entire trappings of Greek culture wherever he went - and
in this case, millennia before he actually got to India, whereupon the
guitar would mysteriously go unknown in the non-Grecian parts of
Europe until someone happened to bring it back from India.



a derivative of
Rock and Roll. Forget about Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin. The
originators
of
Rock are the likes of The Beach Boys, The Shadows and *** Dale. Deep
Purple
and Led Zeppelin originated Metal.

Read the above again and you'll see that's what I said: "it's earliest
incarnation (good old fashioned 'heavy metal') began with Deep Purple
and Led Zeppelin..." I mentioned rock as a correction to your claim
that metal derived from pop, I wasn't talking about the origin of
rock.

You are again mixing up Rock with Metal once again. Rock derives from
Surf
Music and Rembetica and of course Pop. Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin came
after the Rolling Stones who were covering Beatles pop songs using guitar
arrangements based on Surf Music and Rembetica.

Um, what? You realise of course that the Rolling Stones also started
as a blues band, and that "Midnight Rambler" uses the same score as
Chuck Berry's "Hootchie Kootchie Man"? For that matter, the anthem
that created surf music, "Surfin' USA", uses the same tune as Berry's
"Sweet Little Sixteen". The Beatles themselves were open about having
been influenced primarily by rock'n'roll, doing a number of
rock'n'roll covers. McCartney's '99 Run Devil Run album is explicitly
a tribute to the rock'n'roll the Beatles grew up on in their formative
years.

The Beatles also covered Miks Theodorakis.

Which pieces? Did they cite him as an inspiration they did the rock
'n' roll acts they covered, or just like the music?

Rave and Trance on technical grounds should be classified as
classical
music.

I think this is another one for the sig files, for those collecting.
So, what are these 'technical grounds', Aggy? From all you've said,
classical = not pop, jazz, rock, blues or folk. Does this mean rave
and trance are classical simply because they're none of these?

That and the fact that their composition is based on classical
principles.

Which ones? We're still trying to pin down just what defines classical
music, remember. If it's being written between 1750 and 1820 as
someone suggested, there's remarkably little trance that would
qualify.

We are using the border definition of Classical to mean unsyncopated
orchestral harmonies.

Where on earth do you find "orchestral harmonies" of any sort in
computer music? It doesn't even use instruments other than percussion
and the computers themselves!

Once more you don't know what you are talking about. You probably don't even
know what a chord is.

I play guitar, Aggy. It's quite helpful to know what a chord is.

Phil
.

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