Re: 4th Season Dr. Who - Turn Left - 5 star poll - SPOILERS AHOY !

The Master wrote:
On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, peachy ashie passion wrote:

What about the millions who are working to improve things, don't think anyone owes them a thing, and just aren't getting anywhere? What about the folks working three jobs to stay in place? No, nobody OWES them anything.

But can you acknowledge that they exist?

Sure, they exist. I didn't realize that you thought I refused to acknowledge them...

Can you feel sympathy for the fact that somebody can work their ass off just to stay in place?

Not sympathy...

Why are they working three jobs just to stand still? Is their apartment rent too high? Buy too much car for what they could afford? My current wife had a car, an apartment, and a single full time job earning $10 an hour, when I met her back in 2006. She had no problem in making ends meet.

Yes, she could have bought a brand new minivan instead of the used compact she had. But that would be a poor decision that she would have to then pay for (literally) herself. Yes, she could have lived in a nice apartment complex on the "good side of town" rather then the one she was living at. But that would be a poor decision that she would have to then pay for (literally) herself.

So I ask you, why is that person in that situation? Is it REALLY for reasons out of their control, or is it the result of their own actions and decisions? I believe, with every fiber of my being, that at least 99% of all such situations was preventable, but the person freely entered into it themself. The other 1% is left only because I cannot possibly think of every possible situation, so I am leaving an "out" incase there is one.

I'm not asking you to support them or give them something. I'm asking you to acknowledge their existence.

Yes, people who bit off more then they can chew financially do exist.

Now I'm asking you, who's fault is it that they are in that situation?


Well, let's talk stories, and after each, you tell me who's fault it is. Let me tell you about people I know. Real life stories, not hypotheticals.

1. Marcy. Marcy is 55. She got married straight out of high school to her high school sweetheart, and they started having kids. He made enough at his blue collar job that they were never rich, but they did ok. They had a house and a decent car, and the kids never went without school necessities. When the oldest 3 kids were grown and out of the house and the youngest two were 8 and 12, dad started using drugs. Dad got abusive. Marcy hid enough money for a little bit of nest egg and found some other women sharing a house so she could afford to move the heck out. She did. Moved out and got a job waiting tables at a diner - all she could really do, and especially with young kids at home. Dad lost his job and is now in jail on drug charges, but she's rightfully proud that she got the kids out of there, showed them that wasn't acceptable and didn't tolerate any abuse of her or of the kids.

But then, 5 adult women plus their kids sharing a house is hard work, and it was only a few months before one of the women came up short on the rent. The rest couldn't pay the rent without them, so all got evicted.

Now Marcy and her kids live in one room in the Motel 6. Marcy works 2 jobs waiting tables and it earns her just enough to pay the motel bill from week to week. The bill at the motel is exactly the same as cheap apartment rent is around here - but an apartment requires deposits and utilities, and she spends every penny she's got paying for the motel and food.

Yeah, Marcy wouldn't be in that position if she hadn't got married straight out of high school. If she'd gone to school longer, if she had more training, she could earn more money. 25 years ago though, that seemed like a good option - and for 20 years, it was a good option.

Is it still Marcy's fault?

Laura is 33, has 3 kids. Laura got married a few years after high school too. Laura married an older man, one with an established career, who helped her get good employment in the same field. After 7 or 8 years, they started having kids.. now after 14 years of marriage they have 3 kids. Laura still worked and the combined income allowed them to live pretty darn good - new cars every couple of years, a really nice place, and money left over for vacations and nice clothes. And Laura's husband fell in love with a new woman and walked out. No more vacations, no more nice clothes. No more new clothes at all, which is hard with three growing kids. Laura scaled down to a cheap apartment she could afford on her own, but since she's got to pay daycare for 3 kids... well, she makes sure that the bills get paid and the lights and heat stay on, but some nights the kids are going to bed hungry because there just isn't enough food. She doesn't drink, she doesn't smoke, she doesn't gamble. There isn't anything left for them to cut out.

What choice did Laura make that was wrong? When she got married 14 years ago, should she have foreseen how things would change?


Jaime is 32. She and her husband were married 15 years, with kids aged 15, 7, and 6. They'd always lived right on the edge of poverty, barely scraping by. Never any money to spare, but they never asked for a handout, never wanted anyone else to be responsible. He did odd jobs and she stayed home with the kids and frankly I think they dealt a little drugs on the side to help out, but I have no proof so that's neither here nor there. But they were happy and the kids were happy, and somehow they managed. Until her husband was hit by a car and killed instantly. She's devastated and grieving, the kids are devastated and grieving, and they aren't even close to making it financially.

All her fault, yes?


So let's talk about Mark.

Mark is 14 years old, and he lives with his mom and younger brother who is 8. Dad isn't in the picture. He exists, though he lives 1500 miles away. He calls sometimes, but he doesn't pay child support and hasn't since Mark was 2.

Mark has asthma, and there's no money for medication, so sometimes he misses school from it. A couple of time they family has moved, usually because they've been evicted, and when they do, Mark's mom takes a few weeks before she takes a day off to go register the boys for school - so Mark has missed a lot of school, and mom is really okay with that. She dropped out of school in 8th grade, and she doesn't really understand what Mark is doing at school anyway. It feels weird for him to be learning stuff she doesn't know, and it makes her feel like she loses authority over him... So Mark is close to flunking out, and mom makes some token efforts at keeping him in school, but she's sort of looking forward to him stopping. Besides, she works nights and is home in the morning, and she'll be able to see a lot more of him when he is home in the mornings instead of being in school.

Now let's talk fault. No question, it's Mom's fault. Mom and Dad, anyway. Mark is 14 years old, and he hasn't been to school enough to make any connections or to get the basics.. now that he's in high school without the basics, there isn't much chance of him succeeding, either. Mark's only shot at success is the same as his little brother's shot at success... somehow having the maturity as a young child to work hard and get that education. In other words, virtually no hope at all. Mark is a good kid now, not in trouble, not in a gang. But he isn't in anything else either.

It's not your fault Mark didn't get an education, and it's not my fault either. Neither one of us owes Mark anything. The only people who owed him anything were his parents, and they let him down badly.


So now what?

How about you tell me the plan of how Mark can work really hard and make a success of his life... work really hard at what?
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Dumbing Down Ed (Was:Re: Racial Differences in Intelligence)
    ... read some Reader's Digest articles on education and schools ... Compared to what their kids are learning now? ... Yes, because the school work was a lot, LOT harder. ... There were also a lot of jobs for people with limited ...
    (sci.anthropology)
  • Re: Dumbing Down Ed (Was:Re: Racial Differences in Intelligence)
    ... read some Reader's Digest articles on education and schools ... Compared to what their kids are learning now? ... Yes, because the school work was a lot, LOT harder. ... There were also a lot of jobs for people with limited ...
    (sci.cognitive)
  • Re: OT - Congratulations to President Bush
    ... "You work three jobs? ... care - for her kids, whenever it is she's working & they're not in school? ... taking care of their own problems.... ...
    (alt.autos.toyota)
  • Re: Lost in the country......
    ... And, don't ignore those good kids, with good grades, with good attitudes, who can't find a decent job here anymore. ... You're a public school teacher, and have been one for decades, and yet claim to be a self-made man who's succeeded from hard work and determination? ... Okay, you've seen some transcripts of poor students who whine about not getting jobs, I was wrong. ...
    (alt.guitar.bass)
  • Re: Loss of civil liberties?
    ... I take my kids to school most days, ... Are you claiming there is no CCTV or ANPR where you live? ... Mark won't give a damn until it affects _him_personally_. ...
    (uk.politics.misc)