Re: Proms


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On 30 Jul, 12:03, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

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> On 30 Jul, 02:54, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> <pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

>>news:c836c53e-c966-49a8-951a-d0a39671be7c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> > On 29 Jul, 20:45, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> "Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wilson2004nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
>> >> message

>> >>news:dQHjk.39135$3L5.24445@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> > "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> >news:PamdneKk0deyIxPVnZ2dnUVZ8s_inZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On 30 Jul, 12:03, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

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> On 30 Jul, 02:54, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> <pbow...@xxxxxxx> wrote in message

>>news:c836c53e-c966-49a8-951a-d0a39671be7c@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> > On 29 Jul, 20:45, "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> >> "Stephen Wilson" <stephen.wilson2004nos...@xxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
>> >> message

>> >>news:dQHjk.39135$3L5.24445@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> > "Agamemnon" <agamem...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
>> >> >news:PamdneKk0deyIxPVnZ2dnUVZ8s_inZ2d@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

>> >> >>> Rock and blues aren't pop. Is Rebel Rouser a classical piece? >> >> >>> The
>> >> >>> Supernatural? Guitar Boogie?

>> >> >> Classical = not pop, not rock, not blues, not folk, not art >> >> >> music,
>> >> >> not
>> >> >> jazz, not any derivatives of any of the earlier.

>> >> > So acid is classical? Easy listening, such as Val Doonican, is
>> >> > classical?

>> >> Acid what? Jazz, House, what? Easy listening is derived from folk.
>> >> Folk
>> >> being specifically Irish pop music (a completely artificial genera
>> >> invented
>> >> in the 50's and 60's).

>> > There are entire genres of bluegrass and American and Australian

>> Bluegrass is African American. Actually its origin is French just like
>> Rap,
>> but it has nothing to do with Folk. Folk is Irish pop music concocted >> in
>> the
>> 50's and 60's

> No it isn't.

> which uses instruments that weren't invented until the 30's.

> Which instruments are those

Irish Bouzouki. Flat backed version of the Greek Bouzouki (c. 1930) which
was brought to Ireland by Irish sailors in the 1950's.

Okay, and how much Irish folk actually uses this instrument? Or for

It's the main accompanying instrument. Barley any, (and probably none) of the instruments used in Irish folk are traditional Irish instruments.

that matter folk music generally (since you insist that folk music is
Irish music by definition). Did Bob Dylan use it? I think you're

What's Bob Dylan got to do with it?

getting a bit confused - the fact that the instrument didn't exist in
Ireland earlier than the 1960s doesn't mean the music didn't; it just

The music was artificially concocted. It's based primarily on Balkan dance music mixed with Irish dance music.

added the instrument to its repertoire. Blues frequently uses electric
guitar, an instrument only invented in the 1940s, yet commercial blues
music dates to the 1920s. The Indians eat curries with chillis, yet
the chilli was unknown in Asia until the 18th or 19th Century. They
still ate curries before this date, often to much the same recipes -
they just added a new ingredient when it became available.

Incidentally, I notice you didn't comment on the origins of country,
so allow me to correct this omission. Commercial country dates to the
1940s and is based on a mixture of blues, regional Amderican folk
music including bluegrass -

It's not folk unless it Irish popular music.

and Irish folk music, which was brought to
rural America with the exodus from Ireland in the 19th Century and
itself gave birth to much of the American folk music that followed.
>> >> > Latin is classical? Metal? New Age? Rap? Hip Hop? Where does Big
>> >> > Band
>> >> > music

>> >> Latin is a direct ancestor of pop.

>> > "Ancestor"? Aggy, ancestors come first. Modern pop began with the
>> > Beatles, who didn't have Latin influences

>> Modern pop began with The Beatles, Cliff Richard, Buddy Holly and >> Ritchie
>> Valens, to name but a few. You remember La Bamba don't you? Pop had
>> plenty
>> of Latin influences.

> No, Aggy, Latin is not "songs with Spanish words" - Las Palabras di
> Amor, say, is not a Latin song. Nor is it "songs sung by Mexican-
> Americans".

You are an idiot. Latin is short for the Latin American style of music and
dance.

i.e., not rock music that happens to have Spanish words. Richie
Valens' stuff is about as Latin as Queen's. La Bamba did not come from
a Mexican musical tradition - it was rock'n'roll, the 'get up and

IDIOT! You clearly have no idea what the Latin genre is. I suggest you watch Bruce Forsyth's documentary on the subject.

dance' music of its day, with castanets. It may well have had a part
in defining the Latin scene, but the "Latin American style of music
and dance" you claim as an ancestor of pop music didn't exist until La
Bamba came along, if then, Moreover "Latin" is not a catch-all, and

BOLLOCKS! You don't know what you are talking about as usual.

there isn't a homogenous "the" Latin American music - if you watched
the recent series on the development of Brazilian music, for example,
you'll have seen a wide variety of musical types, most of which bore
very little relationship to what we know as "Latin music" or Latino,
which was a late import to that country. "Latin" music describes a
fairly specific type of bouncy dance music associated mostly with
Mexico and nearby areas of the Caribbean.

>> >- what's called Latin today
>> > (i.e. South American- and Mexican-inspired pop) postdates that.

>> > Metal is a derivative of pop.

>> > Rock; its earliest incarnation (good old fashioned 'heavy metal')
>> > began with Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin (the same Zeppelin who >> > started
>> > off as a bluesy group called The New Yardbirds and who covered a
>> > Memphis Minnie song).

>> What is the nonsense?

>> Rock began when *** Dale covered the 1930's Rembetika track Misirlou >> by
>> Jack Gregory (Yannis Halkias) in the style of Surf Music,

> No it didn't. The Beach Boys covered it in the style of surf music.
> *** Dale played it as a rock'n'roll guitar solo, a format that was

Go listen to the original recoding by Jack Gregory. *** Dale developed Rock
guitar from the combination of Rembetika and Surf Music. The Shadows who
were the other pioneers of Rock were influenced by bouzouki harmonies and
melodies created by Oscar winning composers Theodorakis and Hatzidakis who
were influenced by Vamvakaris and Tsitsanis and other Rembetika pioneers.

Americans Blues was primarily based on Jewish Blues,

Hence all the prominent American Jews among its pioneers, like Robert
Johnson, Blind Boy Fuller, Sonny Boy Williamson...no, wait, they
weren't Jewish. Silly me. Did New Orleans even have a prominent Greek
presence?

Greek American Johnny Otis was one of the early major R&B producers and pioneers.

Even Misirlou didn't register outside the Greek community
until it was turned into an American rock'n'roll song (and by a
Lebanese Arab at that), despite being hugely popular within the Greek
community for 35 years before that. And that was one song pulled from
the genre (and go on as you like about the Greek ancestry of some of
rock's pioneers, the music they played had no more Greek influence
than Misirlou had Arabic influence).

More IGNORANCE! The dromi used in Rembetika such as Hijaz, Hijazkiar, Houseini, Huzam, Rast, Segah, etc. have Arabic names. Now I wonder why that is. Could it be that it was influenced by Arabic tonal music. Could it be that the original instruments used quarter tones like Arabic music. You haven't got a clue about what you are talking about so I suggest that you shut up.

Maybe the popularity of this
music within your community gives you a skewed perspective, but Greek
music has provided no more than a very occasional source of pilfered
lyrics in the grand scheme of Anglo-American popular music of the past

POPPY***!

It's not Anglo anything. It's Greek, Jewish, Latin, Irish, French and African in origin.

century. You realise that when people talk about Athens being a home
of the blues, they're talking about the one in the US state of
Georgia, right?

> anything but novel by 1962. And yet it's not a song you find listed
> among the influences or in the back catalogues of the early rock
> musicians; it was covered by the Beach Boys, who as you noted were
> among the pioneers of pop. not bands like the Rolling Stones. And even
> if rock had begun at the point when *** Dale produced his version of
> Misirlou, his version was done in an American music style, on an

His version was done in a Greek blues style because it was a Greek Rembetika
song using a Surf Music arrangement.

Okay, Aggy, so what exactly do you understand by the word "style", or
indeed the word "arrangement"? *** Davies did the song as a one-
string guitar solo - this is not the rembetika style. If the
arrangement was also different as well (i.e. notes changed, added or
removed), then it's hard to see any resemblance at all to the
original.

Arrangement doesn't mean changing the notes you moron. Arrangement is how the notes are inflected and accompanied depending on what instrument they are played on.


> American instrument (an electric guitar solo) - there's nothing Greek

The guitar isn't an American instrument.

The electric guitar is. And that was derivative of Spanish forms of
guitar. Incudentally, similar instruments seem to have been devised in
a number of places - there's a very similar Khmer instrument
(interestingly, the Khmers seem to have used a lot of string
instruments since at least the 11th Century; thiey've got things that
look entirely different to Western counterparts that are played like
and produce similar effects to harps and violins, as well as their odd-
shaped guitars). In fact, a brief browse of Wikipedia suggests that
instruments like this from India (from which Cambodia derived its
ancient culture) may actually have been ancestral to Western guitars
millennia earlier.

The ancestors of the guitar came from ancient Greece. If there is anything similar in India then it was brought the by Alexander the Great.


> a derivative of
>> Rock and Roll. Forget about Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin. The >> originators
>> of
>> Rock are the likes of The Beach Boys, The Shadows and *** Dale. Deep
>> Purple
>> and Led Zeppelin originated Metal.

> Read the above again and you'll see that's what I said: "it's earliest
> incarnation (good old fashioned 'heavy metal') began with Deep Purple
> and Led Zeppelin..." I mentioned rock as a correction to your claim
> that metal derived from pop, I wasn't talking about the origin of
> rock.

You are again mixing up Rock with Metal once again. Rock derives from Surf
Music and Rembetica and of course Pop. Deep Purple and Led Zeppelin came
after the Rolling Stones who were covering Beatles pop songs using guitar
arrangements based on Surf Music and Rembetica.

Um, what? You realise of course that the Rolling Stones also started
as a blues band, and that "Midnight Rambler" uses the same score as
Chuck Berry's "Hootchie Kootchie Man"? For that matter, the anthem
that created surf music, "Surfin' USA", uses the same tune as Berry's
"Sweet Little Sixteen". The Beatles themselves were open about having
been influenced primarily by rock'n'roll, doing a number of
rock'n'roll covers. McCartney's '99 Run Devil Run album is explicitly
a tribute to the rock'n'roll the Beatles grew up on in their formative
years.

The Beatles also covered Miks Theodorakis.


You're rapidly heading back towards craziness, again - are you just
trying to start another argument for the sake of giving you an excuse
to spend more time on the internet away from such real-world
temptations as your neighbour's badly-brought up cat? There was a well-
known early rock song derived from a rembetika song - fair enough,
I'll give you that. It wasn't as formative or important as you make it

Wrong!

out to be, and it was just an isolated song, but it's not a bad effort
at music history and isn't too far off base. But doing the Goodness
Gracious Me act and shouting "Greek!" at everything just sends you
back to laughing stock territory.

You are a fool!


>> >> Rave and Trance on technical grounds should be classified as >> >> classical
>> >> music.

>> > I think this is another one for the sig files, for those collecting.
>> > So, what are these 'technical grounds', Aggy? From all you've said,
>> > classical = not pop, jazz, rock, blues or folk. Does this mean rave
>> > and trance are classical simply because they're none of these?

>> That and the fact that their composition is based on classical
>> principles.

> Which ones? We're still trying to pin down just what defines classical
> music, remember. If it's being written between 1750 and 1820 as
> someone suggested, there's remarkably little trance that would
> qualify.

We are using the border definition of Classical to mean unsyncopated
orchestral harmonies.

Where on earth do you find "orchestral harmonies" of any sort in
computer music? It doesn't even use instruments other than percussion
and the computers themselves!

Once more you don't know what you are talking about. You probably don't even know what a chord is.


Phil

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