Re: Enormous mega plot hole in most of Series 2


"Astrobiochemist" <CCSBeyond@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1152726488.165786.56100@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > >> >> Somones already mentioned something very similar but I can't > > >> >> find
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> thread
> > >> >> to elaborate on it so I'll start a new one instead.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If Rose was not born in alt.earth then how could the Doctor have
> > >> >> met
> > >> >> her
> > >> >> and
> > >> >> taken her to 1879 to meet Queen Victoria so that she could > > >> >> create
> > >> >> alt.torchwood ?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> If the alt.doctor met alt.queen-victoria by himself then it > > >> >> would
> > >> >> not
> > >> >> have
> > >> >> been in the form of TenDoc since there would have been no Bad > > >> >> Wolf
> > >> >> Rose
> > >> >> to
> > >> >> save and force EcclesDoc to regenerate, and no reason to go to > > >> >> see
> > >> >> Ian
> > >> >> Dury
> > >> >> in concert, and the events would not have been set in motion for
> > >> >> Canary
> > >> >> Warf
> > >> >> Tower to be built nor would alt.london look anything like it > > >> >> does
> > >> >> today
> > >> >> and
> > >> >> alt.Pete and alt.Jackie would never even have been born.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> The whole parallel universe scenario is absolute bollocks and > > >> >> the
> > >> >> only
> > >> >> way
> > >> >> to resolve this mega continuity error is to do a Bobby coming > > >> >> out
> > >> >> to
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> shower and write out the entire RTD era completely.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> > Interesting questions. I think the real answer is that the
> > >> > alt.earth
> > >> > is
> > >> > not a parallel universe, but an alternative one, in the quantum
> > >> > sense.
> > >> > You
> > >> > could get a universe which is identical in all respects, except
> > >> > that
> > >> > in
> > >> > 1987 someone lived instead of dying. .
> > >>
> > >> We could if the divergence only took place in 1987 (actually 1983 > > >> for
> > >> taking
> > >> Mickey into account) but it did not. The universe diverged in 1879
> > >> since
> > >> there was no alt.rose to meet Queen Victoria irrespective of > > >> weather
> > >> there
> > >> was an alr.doctor. That means that alt.pete should not have even > > >> been
> > >> conceived, nor alt.jackie let alone Ricky. There would have been no
> > >> WW1
> > >> or 2
> > >> or any President Kenney or the Beatles nor any 1987 as we know it.
> > >>
> > >> RTD has created the biggest, most gigantic, massive, huge plot hole
> > >> in
> > >> the
> > >> history of any science fiction show on television.
> > >
> > > Considering how randomly the Doctor travels around, it is entriely
> > > possible that a different Doctor, with a different companion met > > > Queen
> > > Victoria and fulfilled the events of Tooth and Claw. A different
> > > Doctor might have meant that Queen Victoria created Torchwood but > > > did
> > > not give it the command to fight the Doctor.
> > >
> > > While things are different due to the alternate Torchwood, For the
> > > most
> > > part, this world is 99.9 Bar Percent exactly the as the "original."
> >
> > The .0_1% means that Pete and Jackie will NEVER be born period. Either
> > the
> > same Doctor and the same Rose meet Queen Victoria in the same way and
> > events
> > happen 100% as they did or Pete and Jackie are not born.
>
> <<<No, that is a false statement.>>>
>
> No, that is a true statement. We are dealing with the effects that are
> recorded in the memory of the participants. If the events are different
> then
> so will the memories. If the memories are different then Pete and Jackie
> will NEVER be born period.

<<<This is a specious argument. Your conclusion does not follow your
premise.>>>

Wrong.

<<<How do you get from point A, which is the memories of the events of
Tooth and Claw are different, even though it may have all worked out
the same, even without Rose, to Pete and Jackie will never be born.
You may be tempted to call upon the Butterfly Effect but due to
Poincaré recurrence theorem and the Ergodic hypothesis (there is a
reason I keep mentioning them), the long term effect of such a
difference can be minimal, macroscopically (much as how we can have two
days with the same exact weather but 100 days ago, the weather patterns
before hand are completely different).>>>

That is totally irrelevant to the matter in question. Radiation and Chemical reactions must be taken into consideration and these dictate that there will be no recurrence under any circumstances and waiting long enough will not ensure that the desired events occur in one of the possible combinations since the desired events cannot be reached by any possible combination of the disturbed system. Chemical reactions and radiation have occurred and the knock on effect is irreversible and the events themselves are indelibly written in peoples memories and that's why Pete and Jackie will not exist in a 1986 that looks like out 1986 did.

Add to that the fact that the universe is expanding and it is IMPOSSIBLE under any circumstances for any convergence to take place even in a nanosecond. The universe will have expanded instantaneously with the change and recorded it indelibly in the fabric of space time.

Rose is required to be in 1879 for Pete to be born and for 1986 to look like it did in our universe.


> > > Pete and Jackie are still born, Mickey's parents meet and have a
> > > child,
> > > it all works. So far, all the arguments that I have seen from you
> > > saying that there is no possibility of this happening are specious > > > at
> > > best.
> >
> > So you obviously you have not considered the effects of Chaos Theory
> > then.
> > No Rose in 1879 then no storm in south America six hours later, no > > Pete
> > and
> > Jackie conceived.
>
> <<<You seem to be misunderstanding Chaos Theory. You need to take in to
> account Poincaré recurrence theorem and the Ergodic hypothesis when
> trying to determine long term changes ina dynamic system.>>>
>
> I am not misunderstanding anything. You are forgetting that atoms decay
> and
> chemicals react, the effects of which can only be ignored for a limited
> time
> when attempting to simulate a thermodynamic system. The real world is > not
> the ideal isolated thermodynamic system dealt with in the approximations
> of
> first year physics and the lecturers make the perfectly clear to you.

<<<When using the common isotopes of commonly occurring elements, the
half-life of those atoms are as such that it is not pertinent to the
discussion.>>>

BULLSHIT. Half life is only a measure of the amount of time needed for a
substance to have decayed to half of its initial quantity. Radioactive decay
occurs all the time and is relevant to the real world if you want to predict
the precise interaction of matter. It is an indelible marker of time and is
why we have radio carbon dating.

<<<As radiocarbon dating is not playing a role here, it does not seem
pertinent. On the scale of atoms, the individual atoms that make up
each person in the other world may be different but when taken as a
macroscopic whole, the difference is minor.

Something a professor of mine always reminded us was that the universe
is filled with combinations of positive and negative feedback loops.
When working together, macroscopic changes will be minimized, despite
great microscopic differences.>>>

IRRELEVANT.

Radioactive decay determines the arrow of time as does the expansion of the universe. Because of these there is zero probability of convergence to the world we know today from different starting conditions, such as Rose not being there in 1879. The calculations themselves become chaotic after about a nanosecond and that's without Quantum or Relativistic effects being considered, so an exact calculation would be virtually impossible with today's technology but when Quantum and Relativistic effects are taken into account its is obvious to anyone doing the calculation that convergence can never occur. It all cancels down to zero. Without Rose being present in 1879 the calculations are simple and anyone in their right mind can see that a 1946 (the year when Jackie was supposed to be conceived) derived from those starting conditions will never look like the 1986 that we knew no matter how many combinations are possible because the "balls" that are needed to make it so cannot be pulled out of the bag because there are not in the bag in the first place. Its the complement of the grandfather paradox.

> We are not even dealing with the need for recurrence in such a system > and
> it
> is not a matter of waiting long enough to go through all permutations.
> Atoms
> decay and chemicals react and therefore the mark of time is indelible.
> After
> a femptosecond (the time taken for a chemical reaction to occur) the
> effects
> are irreversible and Quantum theory has not even been invoked which > would
> reduce the time of irreversibility even further. Memories are formed by
> chemical reactions and chemical reactions release energy and energy
> affects
> everything around it. I cannot make the calculation as to when a change > in
> memory becomes irreversible since I do not know precisely how the brain
> works but I can assure you that the energy released by such a process
> would
> make the system around it chaotic in nanoseconds (and I still haven't
> invoked Quantum theory). Assuming there is no other movement inside the
> system of the brain and only one memory cell is active and no radiation
> has
> reached the outside world yet (again not invoking Quantum theory) that
> gives
> you less than a billionth (UK billion) of a second for a system to > diverge
> and converge again and after that convergence within the system is
> IMPOSSIBLE and that means the surrounding system will NEVER converge
> either.
>
> A billionth of a second is all you have to "change your mind". Change > the
> Doctor and Rose to a different Doctor and no Rose and you are looking at > a
> completely different unrecognisable future that can never converge since
> already in the original system where there was only one billionth of a
> second for them to have "changed their minds" back to the state it was > in
> that it was in, and assuming they failed to do so, the impact on the
> outside
> world has become irreversible. No Pete and Jackie would have even been
> conceived even with the real Doctor and real Rose meeting Queen Victoria
> if
> one memory cell in their brains switched from 1 to 0 (lets say) without
> switching back in a nanosecond and the original energy that was released
> by
> that change is all reabsorbed in the original atoms. After a nanosecond
> the
> system become chaotic and now lets add the effects of nuclear decay and
> electron transitions and particle and electromagnetic radiation which > both
> mean that the system in which the memory cell reads 0 instead of 1 will
> NEVER converge to the one in which Pete and Jackie were born because > there
> are NO permutations whatsoever that will ensure that the sperm cells of
> Pete
> and Jackie are conceived in 1946. Do you get that, NO permutations in > any
> parallel universe after one nanosecond can result in Pete and Jackie if
> the
> memory cell still reads 0 after that nanosecond. The radiation has > escaped
> to the outside system, the whole universe and has left an indelible mark
> in
> time, all time, all universes all people all memories. Visible > differences
> will result in minutes, in hours they will become measurable, a plant > pot
> at
> Torchwood is 1 centimetre to the right of where it should be, after a > day
> political decisions will be different, after a year different people > will
> be
> born. A nanosecond is all you will have to set history back on its right
> course.

<<<While I concur that there will be differences on the microscopic world
(which no one has argued against), the actual impact upon the
macroscopic world would be much smaller. Again, I refer you to
Poincaré recurrence theorem and the Ergodic hypothesis, as you seem to
be forgetting about them when trying to utilize Chaos Theory.>>>

IRELLEVENT.

If you have only blue and red balls in a bag containing 20 balls then it is
impossible for you to pick out a combination of 5 ball which includes a
yellow ball no matter how many times you try. A combination of all the
particles in the universe including Roses meeting with Queen Victoria is
what defines the universe in which Pete is born. Remove Rose and the
particles cannot be rearranged at a later time as Pete.

<<<Your example here has no bearing on what we are talking about since the
two "bags" we are talking about (the seperate universes), are probably
made up of the same "balls" (materials). >>>

Nope. There is no probably about it. The two bags are NOT made up of the same material. There is no Rose and her memories and the memories of the people who saw Rose in one of them.

<<<It's not which individual ball you are worried about, but the combination that we get out of it
(one combination is Rose meeting Queen Victoria, the other combination
is her NOT meeting Queen Victoria). If the baags have a different
composition, then we are tlaking about universes that had a different
origin (so, it's not a spliting, like the Doctor said but two
completely unrelated universe) and then it becomes a matter of
convergent morphology.>>>

There is no Rose in one of those bags therefore there is no materiel required to get to Pete or to our 1946 or our 1986, the memories, the radiation, the gravitational effects on the planet and the expanding universe are not there. The probability of Pete being conceived with Rose not being in 1879 is ZERO.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Enormous mega plot hole in most of Series 2
    ... possible that a different Doctor, ... The .0_1% means that Pete and Jackie will NEVER be born period. ... the same, even without Rose, to Pete and Jackie will never be born. ... Add to that the fact that the universe is expanding and it is IMPOSSIBLE ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)
  • Re: Enormous mega plot hole in most of Series 2
    ... If Rose was not born in alt.earth then how could the Doctor have ... The whole parallel universe scenario is absolute bollocks and the ... Considering how randomly the Doctor travels around, ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)
  • Re: Enormous mega plot hole in most of Series 2
    ... >>>> The whole parallel universe scenario is absolute bollocks and the ... > possible that a different Doctor, with a different companion met Queen ... The .0_1% means that Pete and Jackie will NEVER be born period. ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)
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  • Re: Enormous mega plot hole in most of Series 2
    ... >>>>> If Rose was not born in alt.earth then how could the Doctor have ... > The .0_1% means that Pete and Jackie will NEVER be born period. ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)