Re: Lalla Ward married Richard Dawkins?

Ian Salsbury wrote:




Ever heard of 'Hate the Sin, love the sinner'?


How literally can you take that though? I`m genuinely interested, if you went to visit a member of your family only to find them beaten bloody on the floor whilst trying to stop a burglar...your family member ends up brain dead in hospital whilst the thief gets sentenced, can you honestly say you could "hate the sin, love the sinner"? Personally I`d want him to suffer the most un-imaginable torment and pain ever devised. Can you "love the sinner" when it`s someone that`s raped a 7 year old girl? How seriously do Christians take this forgiveness malarky? I`m not flaming here, seriously interested in people`s opinions.


It is not something that is easy, and it is not something we always succeed at, but it is something that is powerful.

For example a presbyterian minister who had worked in Northern Ireland told a particular story at a conference in Australia that stuck with me (forgive me if I repeat it wrongly - I've abridged it rather a lot too).

A young woman, exiting a pub, was shot by a masked gunman from across the street. She died some days later in hospital, but before a day or so before she died she told a friend that she did not hate the gunman [though she felt sorry for his mother], but that she forgave him and if he was caught she wanted him to have her bible. The gunman was caught and convicted some time later, and the friend visited him in prison and gave him the woman's message of forgiveness and her bible. That message of forgiveness and love from his victim, who clearly had nothing to gain from it, was enough to cause him to repent and after his release he worked trying to end the violence.

There is another aspect to it though. In recent times - the last 10 years or so - the call to forgive has given an odd dynamic to being a Christian in an increasingly secular Britain:

The modern public trend in the UK is not for forgiveness, but for extended anger and a desire for strong retribution, rather than only justice, as a show of solidarity for the victim. This can be at odds with the Christian view that compassion for the victim and their relatives, and forgiveness for the perpetrator are not mutually exclusive. (Note that forgiveness does not mean "letting them out of jail early" or otherwise loosening the justice system in any way). The fact that we feel called to "temper our anger with grace" can be misinterpreted as not having enough compassion for the victim - "why aren't you angry enough?" people wonder, not realising that we certainly are angry but we are also called to forgive.
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Relevant Pages

  • Re: OT - I may be in the minority
    ... forgiveness and social order are two different things. ... victim can forgive, and in our system, it is not ... punishments and conditions of confinement. ... cells here at the local prison, most are approximately four by eight ...
    (sci.med.transcription)
  • Re: Punishment - why?
    ... You are saying that legal retribution is to give reason for not 'taking one's own revenge'. ... >>>Repentance is part of forgiveness. ... attention and resources and ignoring the needs of the victim. ... (I hadn't omitted restitution - which means making good in every sense ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Punishment - why?
    ... Snip content by all means, ... Punishment is intended to discourage and reform us. ... >> Or are we saying that punishment is part of forgiveness? ... attention and resources and ignoring the needs of the victim. ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Punishment - why?
    ... probably impssible and arragant to say that God agrees with you. ... forgiveness, we may have to a) acknowledge that we were at fault, b) ... attention and resources and ignoring the needs of the victim. ... Restitution is OK for civil matters; ...
    (uk.religion.christian)
  • Re: Lalla Ward married Richard Dawkins?
    ... you went to visit a member of your family only to find them beaten ... It is not a phrase found in the Bible. ... a sin, for sure, but not as grievous as other sins. ... Ask God for forgiveness and he will forgive you. ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)
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