Re: Lalla Ward married Richard Dawkins?


"Nomen Nescio" <nobody@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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"Rich" <r_parker700@xxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:

Snips<

And Hitler was a christian.

snips<

As an atheist I believe that the above comment is both a truth and a lie.
It is true that as a child Adolf Hitler was raised in a catholic family in
a catholic country and was thus a catholic. However, it is equally true
that as he grew to maturity he became a convinced atheist.

Oh? Not so. You are confusing his distaste with the organized, political
Church, and some idea of atheism. Hitler was never an atheist, as his words
show. Read this whole post to get just a taste of what he said on the
matter.

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It
points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers,
recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against
them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage
which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge
to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was
His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two
thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever
before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the
Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I
have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is
anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the
distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own
people."

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The
Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20,
Oxford University Press, 1942) Martin Phipps, October 18th, 2004

Now how he thought Jesus, a Jew, "recognized these Jews for what they
were..." is a bit weird. But it shows the serious delusions the man was
operating under.

Now of course you're claiming (below) that as he wrote Mein Kampf and his
prison years were before he "matured" into a convinced atheist. So I will
leave out quotes from that work, and move on to his rise to power and after.


A better indication of Hitler's attitude towards Christianity and the
church after he had gained power can be found in "Hitler's Table Talk" a
compilation of some of his "off the record" conversations. Comments such
as:

Apropos Christianity 1: "We have no sort of use for a fairy story invented
by the jews"

Apropos Christianity 2: "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was
the coming of Christianity"

Apropos Christianity 3:"The dogma of Christianity gets worn away before
the advances of science"

Apropos the church: "This filthy reptile raises its head whenever there is
a sign of weakness and therefore must be stamped on"

Apropos the clergy: "If I ever have the slightest suspicion that they are
getting dangerous, I will shoot the lot of them"

In my opinion calling a person with such views a Christian is drawing a
long bow indeed.


rich

Allow me to draw my long bow and hit the target shot after shot:

There is no room for doubt that Hitler was a theist, (unless you consider
his spoken word lies) in that he seriously believed in God. He was outspoken
against the _organized political body_ that the Christian Church had become,
however, he believed in God, and that the Jews were evil. You quote him as
Bible Thumpers quote the Bible - out of context of the argument at hand. The
last two quotes you mention above are about the Church and its ministers,
not the religion. None of your quotes show an athest view.

And to disregard "Mein Kampf" as an earlier work he wrote to fool his
jailers is a weak argument. But since you would only take quotes from that
work as an argument FOR your position, let me just quote these, written
after Mein Kampf, and as he rose to and held his power. Please note,
however, that I do not disregard what he wrote in Mein Kampf as irrelevant
to the issue. I consider what he wrote there to be a good indication of his
true character:


1933 - "And now Staatspräsident Bolz says that Christianity and the Catholic
faith are threatened by us. And to that charge I can answer: In the first
place it is Christians and not international atheists who now stand at the
head of Germany. I do not merely talk of Christianity, no, I also profess
that I will never ally myself with the parties which destroy Christianity.
If many wish today to take threatened Christianity under their protection,
where, I would ask, was Christianity for them in these fourteen years when
they went arm in arm with atheism? No, never and at no time was greater
internal damage done to Christianity than in these fourteen years when a
party, theoretically Christian, sat with those who denied God in one and the
same Government." ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Stuttgart,
February 15, 1933. )
1933 - "May God Almighty give our work His blessing, strengthen our purpose,
and endow us with wisdom and the trust of our people, for we are fighting
not for ourselves but for Germany." ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at
Berlin, February 1, 1933. )

1933 - "The advantages of a personal and political nature that might arise
from compromising with atheistic organizations would not outweigh the
consequences which would become apparent in the destruction of general moral
basic values. The national government regards the two Christian confessions
as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality: their
rights are not to be infringed." ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag,
Berlin, March 23, 1933; published in his My New Order )

1933 - "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no
religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious
foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and
religion must be derived from faith." ( Adolf Hitler, in 26 April 1933, from
a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of
1933. )

1933 - "National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take
the Christian Churches under the protection of the State. For their part the
churches cannot for a second doubt that they need the protection of the
State, and that only through the State can they be enabled to fulfill their
religious mission. Indeed, the churches demand this protection from the
State." ( Adolf Hitler, in a Radio Broadcast July 22, 1933; from My New
Order. )

1934 - (and this one really shows how his anti-Christian words really
referred to the organized polticalization of the Church:) "I know that here
and there the objection has been raised: Yes, but you have deserted
Christianity. No, it is not that we have deserted Christianity; it is those
who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a
clear division between politics, which have to do with terrestrial things,
and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has
been no interference with the doctrine of the Confessions or with their
religious freedom, nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary
the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that
religion will not be used as a cover for political ends.

"There may have been a time when even parties founded on the ecclesiastical
basis were a necessity. At that time Liberalism was opposed to the Church,
while Marxism was anti-religious. But that time is past. National Socialism
neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary, it
stands on the ground of a real Christianity.

"The Church's interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight
against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight
against the Bolshevist culture, against an atheistic movement, against
criminality, and in our struggle for the consciousness of a community in our
national life, for the conquest of hatred and disunion between the classes,
for the conquest of civil war and unrest, of strife and discord. These are
not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles." ( Adolf Hitler, in a
speech delivered at Koblenz, August 26, 1934. )

1934 - "We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like
of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first
allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He
abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle
of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is
a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people. [.] It shows us
that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into
favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall
never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and
so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight." ( Adolf
Hitler, in a speech to the 'Old Guard' of the Party at Munich, March 19,
1934. )

1934 - "Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great
religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian
Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened
the religious institutions." ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech at Reichstag,
Berlin, January 30, 1934. )

1936 - (perhaps the most telling) "I believe today that I am acting in the
sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the
Lords work." ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Reichstag, Berlin,
1936. )

1938 - "At the head of our [National Socialist] program there stand no
secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of
belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this
profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future
of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and
fulfill a divine will-not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship,
but openly before the face of the Lord." ( Adolf Hitler, in a speech
delivered at Nuremberg, September 6, 1938. )

1939 - "The judgment whether a people is virtuous or not virtuous can hardly
be passed by a human being. That should be left to God." ( Adolf Hitler, in
a speech delivered at Wilhelmshaven, April 1, 1939. )

1944 - "I may not be a light of the church, a pulpiteer, but deep down I am
a pious man, and believe that whoever fights bravely in defense of the
natural laws framed by God and never capitulates will never be deserted by
the Lawgiver, but will, in the end, receive the blessings of Providence."
( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered on July 5, 1944; from Charles Bracelen
Flood, Hitler: The Path to Power, Boston, Mass: Houghton Mifflin Company,
1989, p. 208. )


Source:
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html


Now unless you are willing to concede that anything he wrote means nothing,
you can't possibly continue thinking Hitler was an atheist. This theory is
widespread, and mostly by the Catholic Church in order to show that only an
athest could be this evil. Such is not true.

Sean.



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