Re: Michelle's Thoughts on 'The Christmas Invasion' (Spoilers)


"Mike Morris" <nyder_o_leary@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message news:1136825788.666025.255700@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 

Agamemnon wrote:

> The Doctor uses the phrase "burned" metaphorically, meaning a huge
> temporal explosion / time storm, etc.

No he doesn't use it metaphorically. He says Gaillfrey is a pile of rocks
and rubble like Earth in 5.5 billion/apple so he is talking literally.


The rocks and rubble I would accept as literal - I would see it as the
Time Lords being erased from history in a time storm, leaving Gallifrey

What on earth is a time storm. Define it mathematically so I can be certain that such a thing, whatever it is, is plausable. Have any scientific papers been published on such an event ?

a barren, uninhabited planet (and hugely damaged by all that time-storm
stuff to boot). The "burned" is the part I read as a metaphor.


It was a literal comparison with Earth in 5.5 billion/apple.


>
>> From PotW
>>
>> "My people were destroyed, but they took the Daleks with them."
>
> This doesn't mean they were unmade. Indeed, if you're dealing with a
> race of time-active beings, one could argue that the only way to
> actually destroy them is remove them from time.

Wrong. If you are dealing with a race of time-travellers then the is no way
that they can be unmade without unmaking the universe and yourself since
they exist in all time even in the time before Gallifrey came to exist since
we already know that the Doctor travelled back 5 billion years in Earths
past in City of Death. 

You would *change* the nature of the universe, that doesn't mean you
would unmake it. The removal of the Time Lords from the universe would
cause some pretty substantial upheavals, one would assume - but as
we're all part of time, our histories would spontaneously change and we
would be unaware of it. Higher species like the Gelth would be
devastated by the changes. No?


WRONG.

Since the Time Lords have interacted with earth and millions of other planets the removal of the Time Lords from time would mean we would not exist. We already know from City of Death and Earthshock that humans would not exist unless the Timelords were there namely Romana. The universe would probably not even exist given the Doctor and Masters fiddling around with energy from other parallel universes in Logopolis in order to stabilise this one using the Lovell radio telescope at Joderal Bank.

If JFK had not been assassinated then EVERYONE in existence in the world today who was conceived after November 22 1963 would NEVER have been born. They would all cease to exist PERIOD and that even includes people in the deepest African rain forests who have never heard of JFK. The removal of the Timelords from history would have an even more devestating effect that the non-assassination of JFK. If the Athenians had been defeated by the Persians in 480 BC then the USA would not even exist nor anyone in it. If even a single mammoth, nay even a single butterfly had been prevented from being born in 60,000 BC then nobody living on this planet today would have been born. History is chaotic and displacing even one molecule of air 1,000 years ago would lead to incalculable consequences. Since the Timelords are entangled will all of history at all times they cannot be uncreated unless history is uncreated and we all cease to exist.


> It throws up very few inconsistencies as far as I can see. Indeed, it

It contradicts everything in the old series and everything in history.

Without the Timelords there would be no TARDIS and no one to exile the
Doctor to Earth. There would be no Master hence no destruction of the Trakan
Union and no UNIT adventures when he appears hence Jo Grant would never have
been the Doctors assistant. There would be no Rani interfering in Earth
history thus present day history would be different. There would be no Drax
and Romana so the Doctor would not have reconstructed the Key to Time, thus
the Doctor would never have been trapped in E-Space and met Adric and Adric
would not have piloted the Cyberman ship back in time to destroy the
Dinosaurs thus Humans would not have even evolved and thats why the Doctor
refused to go back in time to save Adric. 

Yes, but one can accept two things to deal with your gloriously
unpunctuated objections:-

- as the Doctor was at the centre of the event, his timeline is
unaffected. He becomes, if you like, a walking paradox. He may well go

If the Doctors timeline is unaffected then everything he came into contact with must also be unaffected and that includes the Timelords otherwise the Doctors timeline would be affected.

back to previous times and places and find that *they* have changed,
but his memories remain the same. This is a pretty common SF conceit.

That is not possible within this universe. If the Doctor goes back to meet Sara Jane then she can only exist in this universe and so must the Timelords since the existed when the Doctor last saw her and when he was with her.


- time is organic, and tends to heal its own major wounds. This is 

Mathematical equations for this please ?

Quantum mechanically all of history, past, present and future and all parallel universes exist simultaneously superposed and neither the parallel universes nor history can possibly be changed.

Contrary to popular misconception Quantum theory is the most predeterministic theory ever devised. They only reason people think it isn't is because every possible outcome from the beginning of the universe/universes to the end is covered ane everyone sees it from their own point of view. Hence both Schrödinger with his superposed cats and Heisenberg with his parallel universes are both right in their interpretations and Parmenides pre-empted them both by 2500 years and he was also right.

actually obliquely established in Father's Day, with the use of words
like "wound" and "bacteria", and the way that everything is sort of
back to normal at the end, even though the details of Rose's dad's
death has altered.

Fathers Day is the same scenario as Day of the Daleks and is set in 4 different parallel universes, the one where Rose's father dies, the one where Rose sees him die, the one where Rose stops him being killed and the one when her father dies somewhere else. In the 3rd of these universe the Doctor is killed and stays dead leaving Rose trapped forever until the time-eater things gobble her up as well and then the scene cuts to the 4th universe where Rose sees her dad being killed outside of the church. Time has not been changed. Only our point of view has been selected by the director.


> EotW - Jabe: "It's remarkable you even exist".
>
> This line makes no sense assuming a conventional destruction. The
> Doctor could easily be a Time Lord from *before* the Time War.

If the Timelords had never existed then Jabe would not even know how to
identify a Timelord from any other species, thus the Timelords must have
existed and Jabe must have thought all of them were wiped out when Gallifray
was laid waste. She is unaware of renegade Timlords living of Gallifrey
because they are few in number and anyway Timelords can make themselves look
like any species they wish. 

Try reading what I wrote again about time-active species retaining
knowledge of the Time Lords, and then have another go. And she doesn't

Try providing me some mathematical equations for that even being possible or refer to a scientific paper that says it is.

Quntum mechanically time cannot be changed. The scenarios which might allow paradoxes like the grandfather paradox all cancel out in the equations.

say "remarkable you're here," she says "remarkable you exist," so she's
not just surprised that he's not loafing around on Gallifrey. In
addition, she tells him she's sorry about his planet's destruction.

> TUD - The Gelth say that the Time War was invisible to most, but
> devastating to higher species.
>
> Less certain, but this doesn't sound like a conventional war. It sounds
> like constant adjusting of time-lines which would only affect
> time-aware species. The Gelth are aware of the time-rift, which
> suggests that they were such a species.

It sounds like the primary combatants are not interested in lowly species
like humans.


The Gelth clearly state that it was "invisible" to lower species. Not
that no-one could be arsed with them. It's not a question of interest.

> PotW - Jack: "they disappeared from time and space"

Lets complete the quote shall we. "They disappeared from time and space to
go and fight in the Timewar."

Actually, the Doctor tells him they went to fight in a Time War - 

So the Daleks timescooped them to another time where the Time War occured.

Jack's unaware of this, implying that Jack (as a relatively lowly
member (i.e. human) of the mysterious agency doesn't have *that* great
a perception of time events. However, that's immaterial. What matters
is that he says that they disappeared from *time* and space. *Not* that
they were destroyed.


Timescoope


> Putting all this together, my theory is that the Time Lords (& Daleks)
> were erased from history; however, time-active species would be aware

If they were erased from history the history would have been erased as well
and we would not be here. The Doctor flails to destroy the Daleks in Genesis
of the Daleks because he has already seen their future in The Daleks and so
he can't change it. 

I don't get this assumption of yours that history would be erased if
the Time Lords were. It would be very different, one imagines (although
given their general policy of non-intervention, and their stealthy
presence throughout history, the events might not be as drastic as you
think on most planets. One would imagine that Minyos would be hugely
affected, for example, but maybe not Earth). But not erased.

If Minyos is affected, if even a photon from Minyos sun is affected then so is Earth.


> of the Time War and have a knowledge of paradox, rewritten histories
> etc., and might therefore be aware of their existence after this event.
>>From this, scraps of knowledge would filter down to lesser species, so
> that there would be some knowledge of Time Lords and Daleks as
> mythological beings even if no-one is truly certain they existed.
>
> Not saying you have to accept it, but it's a perfectly reasonable
> viewpoint, surely?

No. No Adric no Humans. Since there are humans in RTD's new Doctor Who
universe the Timelords cannot have been erased from history.

Dealt with above. 

Not dealt with above.

No Romana no Adric. No Adric no Humans.


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