Re: Pushing off from the heels?

On Jun 29, 7:07 am, avid_dan...@xxxxxxxx wrote:
On Jun 26, 5:07 pm, cs_post...@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

No, not past the first count, still preceding it. The lowest point
occurs between step 3 and step 1.

Assuming your (both) straight-legged split-legged
position is relatively low, this is a precipitous
drop with way too much horizontal momentum. Since
you claim your standing leg is fully straight by
the end of the first count

No, I claim you have a bad habit of not reading what you respond to,
even when you quote it. I said, and you quoted above, that I was
talking about something that occurs between step 3 and step 1. You
try to pretend that I was talking about the "end of the first count"
when you yourself quoted the evidence that I was talking about
something preceding it.

, your lowering and
rising profiles would have to be "mirrored," and
you have to use brute horizontal momentum to zoom
back up.

Make up your mind - is it a "precipitous drop" as you claim above, or
are the
"lowering and rising profiles would have to be "mirrored,"" as you
claim here?

In fact there is some degree of similarity between the downswing and
the upswing in elegant dancing, in that both are paths curved in the
vertical plane. We do not drop in place and then move, we start
moving as we drop (downswing) and we continue moving as we rise back
up (upswing). One feeds smoothly into the other. This energy
conserving form of movement is the exact opposite of the brute force
approach.

You wouldn't be able to keep the first
count travel restrained,

You wouldn't want to.

as every instructor I've
encountered teaches (implicitly or explicitly).

No, you misunderstood the original intent of that message (those you
heard it from may have themselves as well). The leg movement on the
first count relative to the body is small, but when you use a
downswing the body movement is not necessarily small. Most
instructors you would have encountered would not be teaching true
swing movement, so they would have simply and appropriately (even if
swing were used) caution against making a large leg movement.

There is no way to alter stride length with natural
motion if the standing leg is always fully extended
by the first count as you describe.

Actually there are at least three ways of varying the distance - first
I did not say it had to be fully extended, I said something to the
effect that it often was, so there's room for variation there.
Second, I did not say that the moving leg would reach full extension,
in fact I think I said that it often would not. Third and most
importantly, there is no particular required body altitude - if we
keep the body relatively high, even two straight legs spans little
distance, while if we allow the body to drop quite far, then two
straight legs spans a lot of distance. You will find if you look back
up the thread that I suggested dancers not wishing to move a lot
should not use so much rise and fall, unless overstating it for
communication with a less skilled partner.

What you claim is the (only) alternative way is by
no means the only other way. You seem to be hung
up on the idea that the lowering must be a
"down-swing" or a vertical drop.

There are three choices - a) little rise and fall, b) drop and then
move c) blend movement with lowering. Obviously none are absolutes -
there is a range of possibilities there.

You arrogantly believe that the "safer" way equates
to unskilled, when the it is the _skilled_ that
know how to practice the safer ways, able to deal
with all kinds of situations.

You misunderstand. The less skilled are taught only the "safe" ways
of movement, so that they do not do unpleasant things to their
partner, such as lower on top of them. More skilled dancers will
eventually learn to move in dynamic ways which if done slightly wrong
would result in landing on the partner, but when done right do not. A
teacher is not going to present this concept of movement to students
who aren't yet going to be able to handle it - instead, they are going
to present less dynamic or less efficient means of movement that are
easier to dance safely.

This is precisely the evidence that one is *not* balanced at all
times.

Obviously, in the _uncontrolled_ way you move, you
wouldn't be balanced.

It is out of control only for those not ready to learn to bring it
into control.

Safety is attempting things within your skill, and pushing the
envelope in circumstances where that is appropriate, not in
circumstances where it isn't.
If you are getting stuck down there, you dropped too far in relation
to your horizontal speed - quite likely, you dropped in place before
moving.

Your claim of a straight-legged standing leg precludes
the possibility of a drop in place.

No, it doesn't. You can drop in place to a compressed leg, and then
straighten it as you move away from it. However, if you do this, you
are more likely to get stuck at the low point between your feet
without enough momentum to glide back up. In contrast, if you swing
down you are more likely to swing back up easily.

Only body positions that consist of a displacement against a
conservative force.
Gravity would be one example. If you had a true spring in your body
that could be another, but the problem is that you don't have a real
spring, just some very poor small-scale approximations.

You obviously don't know how to use the "small-scale"
aspects of the body to derive much larger movements.

Small-scale aspects don't store sufficient energy. If you want to
change the discussion from energy conservation to causality I'll
follow you there, but please recognize that it would be a different
subject of discussion.

Do you really understand how energy storage in a spring works? When
you compress a spring against its spring force, you store energy
equivalent to the square of the displacement times the spring
constant.

Read what I wrote. The energy is in the leveraging
of body parts and positioning, not the body parts
themselves.

Read what I wrote - you cannot store energy in "leveraging". I
already described how what you think of as energy storage is actually
nothing of the sort, but merely putting the muscles into a position
from which they will have more opportunity to do work. Opportunity to
do work (convert chemical energy to mechanical) is not the same thing
as storing energy.

I take it you don't know how to spin
on your skates.

That is kinetic energy, not potential.

I wonder how effective
you are at teaching dancing

Who said I was a dance teacher?

going off on some
pseudo-science rant whenever you fail to grasp
human motion itself.

You are the one ranting pseudo-science, I am correcting your errors.
This discussion would be a lot more readable if you did not keep
injecting flawed theories into it.

I bet most people can intuitively
understand what being "elastic" and "spring-y" are
in relationship to human motion, even if they are
not adept enough to move thus.

Their intuitive understanding is often wrong. It may make them
happy, and that may help them dance better. But it leads to flawed
conclusions about the physical reality of movement.

Without a downswing generating the travel, there is nothing for this
to result from other than muscular action.

How sad that you've danced so long and still think
that brute muscles or outright momentum are the
only ways to derive/handle energy. Ever do Judo?

Martial arts are a perfect example of dancing with the laws of physics
- instead of applying brute force, they are about seeking the physical
optimum. The same goes for skilled dancing.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Pushing off from the heels?
    ... leg division, then the lowest point will naturally occur when the body ... But if knee flex dominates the lowering, ... while the standing leg is straight. ... of kinetic energy to potential energy conversion ...
    (rec.arts.dance)
  • Re: Theories of lead and follow
    ... of potential energy). ... and the leg kick-off against ... There must not be any sway during the heel ... sway is the integral of swing. ...
    (rec.arts.dance)
  • Re: Pushing off from the heels?
    ... The same effect occurs in complete dancing as well, ... preclude restraining the travel of the first step. ... not that the leg needs to be straight. ... you should not be attempting to analyze the energy conversion. ...
    (rec.arts.dance)
  • Re: Pushing off from the heels?
    ... flexing my knees at all I will ... opinion and opinions can't be wrong... ... You may believe in having the standing leg straightened ... But that's not the energy management mechanism I'm proposing. ...
    (rec.arts.dance)
  • Re: Pushing off from the heels?
    ... preclude restraining the travel of the first step. ... A lot of good dancing comes from knowing how/when ... You believe in the standing leg being straightened at ... not that the leg needs to be straight. ...
    (rec.arts.dance)