Re: New X-Men: Cipher/Cypher Sounds Different?

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 23:16:09 -0600, Billy Bissette
<baines@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

grinningdemon <grinningdemon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:75c9q410c5qearsnv5l300fheamr1da8pq@xxxxxxx:

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 03:27:35 +0000 (UTC), Dan McEwen
<ferroboy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

grinningdemon <grinningdemon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:gc14q4dvuefu31ft72bjmbd2qh3utf7s6k@xxxxxxx:

On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 00:54:27 -0600, Billy Bissette
<baines@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

grinningdemon <grinningdemon@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:a75vp41tni575pl1i92jduekc98gtbq8e4@xxxxxxx:
On Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:13:31 -0600, Billy Bissette
<baines@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Mind, "turn Cyclops to crap" can also describe writers other
than Claremont. Maybe there is just something about the
character that just eventually led to such results.
(Personally, I find him boring and bland. I'd have a hard time
writing stories about him that didn't eventually put him in a
negative light.)

Cyke's my favorite X-Man...though I will admit he has often been
written poorly and it has made him pretty boring at times...I'm
pretty happy with the current direction for him though.

You mean the guy who created a secret death squad, allowed a kid
who was just starting to learn to be human to be on it, hid it
from his girlfriend, and is allowing his relationship with said
girlfriend to crumble because he is too busy with that secret team
and with his obsessing over a kid that is neither his nor even in
his care?

I actually don't have a problem with the death squad bit...to me,
it makes sense given what has happened...and I think X-23 is a
better fit on the team than Wolverine any day of the week.

I feel the same. She's also less well-known. And X-23 is perfectly
capable of deciding whether or not she wants to pursue her humanity
or remain an assassin. And I've spent plenty of time defending the
creation of X-Force, though I'm not sure I think it needs to be
hidden from Emma.

That's the only bit that doesn't make sense to me...I can only assume,
since they're making such a big deal of it in Uncanny and X-Force,
that there is something more going on.

I don't know.

When it first started, people assumed it was a clue that Scott was
a Skrull (due to Secret Invasion) or it was Donald Pierce pretending
to be Scott (due to Young X-Men.) But neither of those panned out.

Uncanny turning it into a plot point felt very "after the fact,"
as if Uncanny was trying to turn another book's stupid idea into
something usable. It hasn't felt like there was some master plan
coordinating the ideas. (It is similar to when Claremont turned
X-Treme into a counterpoint to Morrison's New X-Men. There wasn't
any apparent coordination between the writers. It was just
Claremont not liking the direction that he saw Morrison taking
the book.)

I don't know...if anything, the set up for Emma's role in Dark Reign
is what feels like "after the fact" to me...I think Bendis got his way
and Brubaker and Faction are just scrambling to make sense of it...I
do think there is some plan regarding Scott's keeping secrets from
Emma...remember, Brubaker has been on Uncanny since before X-Force was
even a blip on the radar and there was clearly a lot of coordination
among those writers leading into Messiah Complex so I'm guessing that
plotline, which began immediately following Messiah Complex, probably
wasn't some big surprise to the other x-writers.


Uncanny just uses it as an excuse to set up Emma's part in Dark
Reign. After the set-up is achieved, the whole "secret" just seems
to fall to the wayside. No follow-up by anyone. Even the Emma
followup is in the "Dark Reign" bannered annual.

And since Dark Reign itself used a different reason to get Emma
to join, Uncanny (and the annual) feels like a response rather than
pre-planned even there.

Agreed...obviously.


Another reason I like the idea is I expect Scott's character arc
over the next few years is going to be about realizing he's gone
too far and trying to make up for it...I also expect there will be
some explanation as to why he's hiding things from Emma.

I don't think Scott's going to spend much time defending his
actions. Wolverine will no doubt back him up completeley. It may
not sound like a ringing endorsement except that people seem to
respect what Wolverine has to say.

I don't know...Wolverine doesn't seem completely on board with all
this...which makes me think they're heading toward some ridiculous
turnaround where Wolverine turns on Scott as the voice of reason...if
so, I plan to vomit.

Wolverine was the voice of reason from the start. Both him and
Warren have played the voice of reason role, while Scott has been all
"The mission is more important than the sacrifices." Wolverine
argued against X-23 being on the team for the sake of her mental
health and development. Scott is the one who wanted her there.
Scott's the one who didn't care when Rahne was caught, instead
blowing up at Logan.

The biggest faults for Wolverine and Warren is that they didn't
walk out on Scott in the first few issues. Or better yet, try to
beat some sense into him.

And you don't see anything wrong with Wolverine as the voice of reason
here? A lot of people around here have been saying Cyclops has been
acting out of character with all this but I'd say it's Wolverine that
seems off...of all the X-characters, he should be totally in line with
this...I can see him having a problem with X-23 or Rahne on the team
but, if anything, the team itself seems more like somethign he should
have come up with.


And I think you're exaggerating the crumbling relationship
bit...and, as we've seen, Emma is more than capable of keeping her
own secrets.

Agreed. The relationship has issues. Name one that doesn't.

Their issues are what make them interesting as a couple...people
bitched for years and CyclopsandPhoenix had basically become all one
word and were no longer interesting...Scott/Emma is clearly a response
to that...and it wouldn't bother me at all if Jean never comes back.

I'd prefer Jean not come back.

Yes, issues make them interesting as a couple. But they should
be decent issues, with some kind of decent logic behind them. There
hasn't been a decent reason to keep X-Force from Emma, nor any reason
shown at all so far for that matter. (I wonder if X-Force was
originally kept as such a big secret as an excuse for it to not
get mentioned in other books, up until Uncanny brought it into a
storyline.)

Then there is the whole detail that all the issue stem from Scott,
yet again. I don't like Scott, but even I find him to be treated
as a completely crappy significant other. (Dumping Maddie and
kid for Jean.

Yes, that was crappy...but it wasn't exactly as cut and dried as him
just leaving his family for another woman...Jean was the love of his
life...and she came back from the dead...and he DID have a breakdown
over the whole thing and try to fix things...and Maddie DID turn out
to be an evil clone...after the fact, I know, but still...

Driving off Jean while cozying to Emma.

I may like the ultimate result but that whole plot line was just
lame...that said, Jean was just as much to blame for that debacle as
he was...instead of even trying to deal with their issues, she just
throws herself at Wolverine...the only reason she wasn't having a
PHYSICAL affair even before Scott and Emma started their PSYCHIC one
is that Wolverine turned her down...mischaracterization all around,
I'd say.

Ready to
drive off Emma after Jean's death, until Phoenix intervened.

Again...lame.

Driving off Emma now over a kid that isn't even theirs

Well, given the obvious connection the kid has to the Phoenix, it's
entirely possible she could have a connection to Scott too...it would
be weird but is there anything about that situation that isn't? And
you're saying that he's "driving off Emma" over it based on what? Two
scenes in two different series.

and a secret
he has no decent reason to keep from her.

"No decent reason" that you know of...they could still make it work.

And completely oblivious,
or completely uncaring, the whole way.)

Well, oblivious is what Scott does best...that part has always been
true...going all the way back to the Stan Lee days.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: New X-Men: Cipher/Cypher Sounds Different?
    ... You mean the guy who created a secret death squad, ... people assumed it was a clue that Scott was ... Even the Emma ... Wolverine will no doubt back him up completeley. ...
    (rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks)
  • Re: New X-Men: Cipher/Cypher Sounds Different?
    ... people assumed it was a clue that Scott was ... Uncanny turning it into a plot point felt very "after the fact," ... Wolverine was the voice of reason from the start. ...
    (rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks)
  • Re: New X-Men: Cipher/Cypher Sounds Different?
    ... people assumed it was a clue that Scott ... Emma followup is in the "Dark Reign" bannered annual. ... Uncanny feels like a response rather ... Wolverine was the voice of reason from the start. ...
    (rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks)
  • Re: New X-Men: Cipher/Cypher Sounds Different?
    ... Wolverine was the voice of reason from the start. ... Warren have played the voice of reason role, while Scott has been ... The first arc of X-Force had Scott: ... Emma captured Shaw, would Scott have simply sent X-Force to "remove" ...
    (rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks)
  • Re: Dark Reign: Emma does have a reason
    ... So Emma Frost does have a reason to hook up with Osborn. ... finally confronts Scott about what he has been hiding. ... The break-up with Jean started ...
    (rec.arts.comics.marvel.universe)