Re: Uncanny #477... continuity snag.

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:27:19 +1000, "Nathan P. Mahney"
<nmahney@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


"grinningdemon" <grinningdemon@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:7p6de2hnttn0ovnvt6tb9p3r9g3msob47t@xxxxxxxxxx
On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:55:00 +1000, "Nathan P. Mahney"
<nmahney@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:


"grinningdemon" <grinningdemon@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:t6vce2tm7u7ladlmov30ngugh93ojlu76n@xxxxxxxxxx
On 18 Aug 2006 02:16:30 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroboy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

grinningdemon <grinningdemon@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
news:uf6ae2dko682b4o393fjfdgc69k7q9vhrd@xxxxxxx:

On 17 Aug 2006 16:06:49 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroboy@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

I understood what Morrison was going for there...I just don't like
building up one character at the expense of another.

I don't think that's the case. The first time Emma went up against
Phoenix (back in Uncanny 129-132 or so), Emma was *seriously*
outclassed. Why should it be any different now? To be honest,
making
Emma come out on top would have been at the expense of Phoenix being
what she is. It was entirely consistent with the power levels she
had.

And I don't think Emma should have been able to take down Jean
either
but a telepath of her power level and experience shouldn't have just
been immediately put down like that...Xavier was able to give Jean a
fight back in the day and, by your explanation, he should have been
just as easily overwhelmed.

There are some clear differences. The power clearly rose in her
naturally. Jean wasn't fighting it, but welcoming it. I think it
gave
her control she'd never really had before. My opinion, of course, but
that's why it works for me. And Emma being even in Xavier's class is
certainly a retcon. (Not a recent one, but a retcon all the same.)
Believe me, I love Emma, but I just don't think she had it in her to
fight against Phoenix. I've never seen *any* telepath do what Jean
did
to Emma. How was Emma supposed to expect it could even happen, much
less fight against it?

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this...not only do I think
Emma should have put up a better fight, but I don't think Jean should
have been able to do this in the first place...your argument that the
Phoenix came back naturally or gradually and, therefore gave her more
control, doesn't work because, even though it built up over time from
our point of view, Morrison's entire run, future story not
withstanding, couldn't have lasted more than a few weeks or maybe a
couple months tops from the characters' point of view...and, if you
recall, Jean embraced the power just fine the first time around until
Mastermind started screwing with her...it was a cool sequence but I
just don't think it fits.

During the Claremont/Byrne run, Jean set up psychic circuit-breakers that
limited the Phoenix power within her. That's hardly embracing the power.

- Nathan P. Mahney -

NERDBLOG - http://nathanpmahney.livejournal.com
Now Playing - Comic reviews, and a rant on super-hero paradigms


Well, I would say Jean's portrayal in the Claremont/Byrne run was
pretty inconsistent in regards to how much she embraced the power...it
seemed to change from moment to moment...which eventually contributed
to the Dark Phoenix Saga...

I didn't spot any inconsistencies. She's all powerful at the end of the
M'Kraan Crystal stuff, then she subconsciously limits the extent of her
power as shown in #110 when she's beaten by Warhawk. Her powers grow bit by
bit as the run progresses, until by the time the Hellfire Club arc starts up
it's starting to get too much for her. How much that has to do with
Mastermind is ambiguous. Would she have become Dark Phoenix eventually
without his influence? I say probably, but who knows?

There are inconsitencies throughout the run...overall, her powers
follow the framework you lay out but, taken issue by issue, you can
see her go from doing something supremely powerful one moment to being
easily beaten in a fight...it's the price you pay for having a
character that powerful in the book (much like Superman in the
JLA)...she should be able to easily defeat any threat the team comes
up against but, despite her power, this rarely happens...in this case,
it fits into the overall character arc though.


and, given what happened then, why would
she ever revel in the power the way she did in Morrison's run?

We could get into the whole thing where Phoenix wasn't Jean in the original
story, but that's something I like to ignore now - Morrison gave us a few
little things that have allowed me to believe that it really was Jean then.
I think the main reason she's accepting of it this time around is that she's
ready for it now. Before, her life experiences weren't enough to have
prepared her for all that power and level of cosmic awareness. She's been
through a hell of a lot since then, and she can cope this time.

I don't buy that...the Dark Phoenix Saga makes it clear that the
Phoenix is beyond the capacity for a human being to
control...Mastermind's manipulation only accelerated the problem that
would have happened anyway...I don't think any amount of life
experience would change that...at the very least it should have come
up.


We're
just not going to see eye to eye on this one. Morrison's take on
these characters isn't for everyone...for everyone I know who loves
his run, I know someone else who hates it as I do...different strokes
for different folks I guess.

Yes, his run is definitely polarising. I think a lot of that comes down to
Morrison being very distinctive. His X-Men feels more like a Morrison comic
than an X-Men comic. To some folks who grew up on the Claremont style it's
wrong. For me it felt completely different, and I liked that. All of a
sudden the books were filled with big ideas and grand concepts that felt
fresh and exciting again. The characters were different, but still
themselves. And for those who thought they were out of character, at least
he gave reasons - many a lesser writer has just written the X-Men out of
character with no rhyme or reason.

Morrison is, as I've stated before, second only to Claremont.

Well, as I've stated before, I hated Morrison's run because of his
characterizations and therefore much prefer Whedon's work on
Astonishing or even Claremont's recent work...but that's just me.


- Nathan P. Mahney -

NERDBLOG - http://nathanpmahney.livejournal.com
Now Playing - Comic reviews, and a rant on super-hero paradigms


.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Uncanny #477... continuity snag.
    ... Phoenix, Emma was *seriously* ... And I don't think Emma should have been able to take down Jean ... And for those who thought they were out of character, ...
    (rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks)
  • Re: Uncanny #477... continuity snag.
    ... Phoenix, Emma was *seriously* ... Emma come out on top would have been at the expense of Phoenix being ... It was entirely consistent with the power levels she ... And I don't think Emma should have been able to take down Jean either ...
    (rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks)
  • Re: Uncanny #477... continuity snag.
    ... Phoenix, Emma was *seriously* ... Emma come out on top would have been at the expense of Phoenix being ... It was entirely consistent with the power levels she ... And I don't think Emma should have been able to take down Jean either ...
    (rec.arts.comics.marvel.xbooks)
  • Re: Smith and Jones science (Was: Doctor Who progressive or interlaced?)
    ... Why have a boring character when you can have a character ... >>> Because the power source is something besides a neutron star. ... The only transducer that could stand up to the power needed to produce a magnetic field that would fry everyone brains on Earth from the moon is a neutrons star at the moment of creation. ...
    (rec.arts.drwho)
  • Koutetsu Sangokushi - new anime version of Romance of the Three Kingdoms
    ... the very bishii Shokatsuryou Koumei. ... develop immense power in his sword and he wipes out the opposition. ... But if you are familiar with the original novel ... The first website contains a chart of character relationships while the TV ...
    (rec.arts.anime.misc)