Re: How would you fix the DCU?

On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 05:07:06 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
<Paul.Duggan@xxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Jun 27, 7:33 pm, grinningdemon <grinningde...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 23:24:01 -0700 (PDT), Duggy
True. But even 2 or 3 books is easier to keep straight that 30.
Take a look at the trainwreck that is the Marvel Ultimate line and see
if you still think so.

Sharnt.

Sooo... much the same as me as a DC fan for the same reasons.
Final Crisis has been weak (to say the least) and Countdown was just
stupid...but I liked Infinite Crisis and 52...and that's 2 more for
the + column than Marvel's got.

Mostly agree (dunno about Marvel, thou)

How does Jay Garrick's continued existence hurt you?
In multiple books at the same time? It doesn't. However some stupid
people believe that too many similar copies of the same character
hurts understanding of the multiverse.
It does confuse the issue.

Well, there you go. It removes the confusion.

You know, I've heard people complain that
there are too many heroes in the DCU (at least for one earth) and that
it makes them all seem less unique...

I do think so sometimes. It's easy to add additional heroes that
never get used again... makes it too full.

Now THAT is something I don't like...I'm of the opinion that the DCU
(and Marvel U, for that matter) is so large and diverse that you can
tell almost any story with an existing character...I'm not saying
never create a new one (obviously if someone has a genuinely
interesting idea they should do so) but my favorite writers tend to be
the ones who dust off old, discarded characters and at least try to
give them new life rather than just tossing in a load of new
characters in some lame attempt to make their mark.


I don't agree with that...I do,
however, think that a multiverse with multiple versions of the same
characters does make them less unique...

Which is why we make each version more unique.

If the different versions are so unique...why not just make them
ORIGNAL characters rather than retakes of the classics?


I like the idea of a single
definitive version of each character...for me, it's hard to think of
Superman as an icon if there 10 different versions of him running
around simultaneously.

I figured.

And writers (and some readers) prefer it. That's why the JSA Annual
on Earth-2 is focusing on the characters that aren't in the modern
JSA. Because the differences are the point and are what make Earth-2
special.
I can see that...and, as I said, I'm fine with the occasional
stop-over at E-2...it's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to
live there.

You don't have to. No one is forcing you to read the Earth-2 JSA.
And we agree that crossovers should be limited. We also agree that
copies of the characters shouldn't exist on multiple worlds... you by
not having multiple worlds, me by making them as different as possible
or reducing the number of copies.

If they would give the two versions an equal chance, I'm fine with
it...but they won't...innevitably, one will get an editorial push
(rarely based on merit) and the other will fade into the
background...in this case, it would be the new earth version that
fades away because they wouldn't try something as radical as an E-2
book without giving it the push.


Keep the New Earth book. I'm fine with that. The Earth-2 book can be
Infinite Inc or some other title.
They wouldn't do that...there's not enough fan interest in something
like that...

Depends. Depends on the popularity of the Annual...

I'd certainly start with specials anyway.

if they were going to do an E-2 book, it would be JSA...

I'm not sure about that. The JSA isn't the best part of isn't
necessarily the JSA.

as you say, it's the differences that set it apart...and most of the
differences that people really remember and care about are in the JSA.

The differences are Helena Wayne, *** Grayson as a grown up Robin,
etc.

Right...and they are usually associated with the JSA...hell, most of
E-2 is usually associated with the JSA.


The JSA member who are similar on both worlds are hardly a difference.

I'll tell you what I would love to see is a second ongoing JSA title
set in the 40s...but on new earth...the history is now vague enough
from all the revisions and, unlike the Silver Age, the key moments
have not been told and retold repeatedly...I think the book could be
great...there have been a few mini series along these lines but I
think an ongoing could really take off under the right
direction...James Robinson would be my first choice for writer
(although he apparently isn't interested in writing these characters
anymore).

That would be great on either world.

But setting it in the 40s would make it unnecessary to put it on
E-2...the only real difference would be the addition of Superman and
Batman...and, if the books set in the 40s, those characters would be
virtually identical to the new-earth versions (time-period
notwithstanding) as the significant differences won't have happened
yet.


You don't have to. I've said that in previous posts.
I just don't think they would publish competing versions like
that...it would be a different story when it comes to the more iconic
characters (as proven by the All Star line) but the JSA doesn't have
nearly as broad a fan-base.

True. Which is why you don't have competing versions. I've said that
in previous posts.

Competing versions would be innevitable...as I've said in previous
posts.


And I did. I thought that Black Canary was made more interesting when
her "origin" involved travel between universes.
Whereas I thought Black Canary was better served when she was split
into two characters...

There are many legacy characters. She's hardly unique.

There are several universe-hoppers as well...so that doesn't make her
unique...it's all in the handling and I think the Black Canary legacy
has been handled better than most.


Yes, it seems that you have an irrational hatred of the multiverse.
Fair enough. But why stop other people enjoying one?
It's not an irrational hatred...I have reasons...you just don't agree
with them.

I knew the word irrational was going to get me in trouble. You can
have an irrational fear of spiders for good reasons.

No you can't...then it would be a rational fear.


You have reasons not to like the multiverse, sure, but it seems more
coloured by your initial rejection of the idea.

True...but I had reasons for my initial rejection too.


As for denying other peoples' enjoyment, I seem to recall arguing with
you not all that long ago over your wanting to abolish the
combined-earth in favor of seperate lines of books set on the
alternates...you were convinced that your idea could only succeed by
removing the combined-earth alternative and didn't seem to care that
other people preferred it.

Then you're misremembering. I've never said I wanted to get rid of
the combined Earth alternatives.

I could swear it was you...I think it was in a thread that started out
discussing the validity of the parallax and ion entity idea...but it
may well have been someone else.


You need to keep the mainline going until it dies naturally (if it
does, and there's no reason to believe it will).

A hard reboot, theoretically solves all continuity problems, but is
bad for readers.

Right...worse than the continuity problems, in my opinion.


We all like what we like...and we're all a little selfish about it
from time to time.

Yes. What is your point?

You wanted to keep the 4 main JSAers. I gave them to you. You wanted
to keep the title JSA. I gave it to you.

And you still complain about me getting anything. In this case you're
the one being selfish.

That WAS my point.


The Evil Mary wasn't a good idea and was badly done (both times).
Reverting that's fine.
The Billy-as-Wizard thing... that's been built up for a while as
Billy's future (DC One Million, etc) it may have been handled badly
and too quickly, but I like conceptually.
Conceptually, I agree with you about Billy-as-Wizard being a decent
idea...but the problem is that leaves CM3 as the replacement...and
since neither of us like him...

I'd make Mary the replacement. And ad a female junior to complete the
trio.

I think Mary should stand on her own similar to Black Adam (only not
evil)...I don't think she needs to be a part of the line of
succession.


No, it wasn't. But if they set minis on Earth-5 then they don't have
to.
The characters aren't that popular...there was a time when they could
have been but DC's lawsuit killed that...if you got your E-5 series,
we'd likely never see the new-earth versions have significant roles in
any story again...unless, that is, they decide to kill them off in the
next "event."

The versions will live or die on their own merits. That's the way
it's meant to be.

But that's not the way it happens...typically, someone behind the
scenes has already decided the outcome before the competition
begins...and it always comes down to a competition...whether your
talking about alternate earth counterparts or just
legacies/replacements...there are exceptions but they are few and far
between.


Agreed. New Earth should have been left without Hal and then a Earth-
One Earth formed to keep Hal fans happy.
As I'm sure you can guess, I don't like that idea either...Hal's loss
is meaningless if he's still appearing regularly in comics regardless
of which earth you set it on...you don't get to have it both ways if
you want there to be any dramatic impact.

We don't have it either way.

The way it is you have no dramatic impact.

Agreed...you'll never see me defend that.

My way you have little dramatic impact.

Right.

Your way you still have unhappy Hal fans.

And the way it is now there are unhappy Kyle fans (I'm one of
them)...someone gets the shaft either way...but I honestly think that,
between Morrison's JLA run and Winick's GL run, a lot of the Hal fans
were starting to come around to Kyle in spite of themselves.

But it's not just Hal's return I have a problem with...it's Hal's
return to the old status quo...it's basically like he was never gone
at all and I prefer to see them move on to something new as opposed to
resetting things to the Silver Age (a general theme that's been
popping up in the DCU in recent years).


Of course, my way you still have the dramatic impact within the DCU,
but that's not a reader issue.

And the reader issue is really all that matters.


How about this... it's not a suggestion, it's an idea that just came
to me and it probably won't work, but I'm interested in playing with
it.

Scrap the multiverse. The DCU has "now" and "15 years ago" books.
The now stuff [Superman] has the history we remember, except when it
that history is replaced by the 15yo stuff [Action Comics]. Thus
continuity is constantly being updated...
Hmmm... it's like Birthright, only worse.
Ugh!

Yeah, sorry I thought of it.

But, you know, I always feel that throwing stupid ideas around
sometime brings about good ones.

Agreed...in theory.


Hard or soft 30 year reboots?
Soft reboots are pretty much the only feasible way to go...at any
given time there will be popular books that DC wouldn't want to scew
with much (like New Teen Titans following CoIE)...

Agreed. Or a hard reboot that fundamentally changes the characters
(Flash I - Wally West) neither a good option.

and the soft reboot
allows at least some of what came before to remain in continuity...it
will cause problems certainly (as it has before) but I think it's the
lesser of evils...

OK, how about this one... each reboot only deletes the stuff before
the previous reboot.

I don't think there should necessarily be a fixed line on this
one...it would pretty much have to vary from character to character.


I just can't stress enough the importance of proper
planning when it comes to the new status quo.

There's dangers in that too. For a start, planning takes away time
from writing. I'm not saying that planning shouldn't happen, but I'm
saying that too much planning can be a bad thing.

True...but I remember reading articles about all the preparation that
went into CoIE...they were planning for years in advance...hell, they
even had a guy who's full-time job was just to read every DC story and
map out the old multiverse...if they had put that kind of effort into
what came AFTER the Crisis, I truly believe we'd all be better for it.


Second, the writer/editor combo coming out of the reboot then set the
agenda for the next 39 years. Look at Wonder Woman for the problems
that would have caused recently.

Clever writers could still turn it around...it doesn't have to take a
reboot to do that.


That said, we've had
more than enough such changes to last a few decades...we don't need
anymore anytime soon.

Agreed.

They need to find a way to do it right before they do it. Then again,
except for a new Silver Age Earth that is impossible... and even that
doesn't always work.
Right...any way they do it there will be problems...the DCU is too
vast and complicated to avoid that...which is why I would rather see
them put the effort into ironing out those problems with the current
status quo rather than throw everything into a blender again.

Or, they coulf cut it into smaller more managable parts.

I like the grandeur of on big interconnected universe...cutting it up
into pieces just seems less impressive to me...and they would only be
more managable if there was a real interest in maintaining a coherent
universe(s)...and the general attitude in comics today seems to be
that continuity doesn't matter because they are only interested in
drawing in new readers...keeping long-term fans happy just isn't
important to them...it sucks but it's become rather obvious.


I liked what he did, I just didn't like the execution. I think I have
a problem with John's writing. His ideas I'm generally fine with. I
recall a very longterm argument over the first Hawkspast argument
where I defended what he did here.
Fair enough...but I will add that I thought that Johns' emphasis on
the reincarnation plot worked really well with James Robinson's "Times
Past" approach in the early issues of that series...unfortunately,
they only got to do it once before Robinson quit co-writing the
book...but at least we got a good Nighthawk and Cinnamon western story
out of it.

Yeah. Of course, that's the story that caused the big fight.

But I think I'd have picked up more Hawkman if they kept them up.

Whatever your opinion of that particular story, I don't see how any
Hawkman fan could deny the story-potential from the general idea.


I can see that's a problem.
It's really annoying...they bring Hawkman back this last time as the
set up for some grand love story and then along comes OYL and they
boot Hawkman out of his own book, hand it off to Hawkgirl (and
generally let it go to hell), and even split them up into different
team books so they can have Hawkgirl jump the first warm body she
meets to really cement the seperation.

Yeah. Idiot move.

I also loved Johns' Teen Titans and it's been crap ever since he left.
I only read the LSH crossover and the Titans Tomorrow.
I'd highly recommend the rest of that run...but, since we don't really
have much in the way of similar tastes, you probably wouldn't care for
it.

Well, I don't like Johns writing, certainly.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on Geoff Johns.
And on many other things apparently.
No. Just Johns and whether Captain Marvel works better in his own
universe.
...and the proper use of the multiverse (or even it's existence).

I don't think we've agreed to disagree on that.

Fair enough.

.