Re: Return of Earth-1 Superman?

On Jan 3, 7:08 pm, Anlatt the Builder <tirh...@xxxxxxx> wrote:
Ah, backpedaling within the same post.
Then you
called the clarification "backpedaling within the same post." No,
within the same paragraph;

And the paragraph was extended over two posts? No. It was within the
same post.

English not your first language, right?

I do not see that as arguing in good faith.

See it how you like. You made false claims, you should have deleted
them rather than let them hang... that's arguing in bad faith.

The store was replaced by a mall, which includes the store.
The store was NOT replaced by a mall. The store is still there.

Exactly.

The other parts of the mall were added to the original store. Unless (oh
my God, more backpedaling!) the store was torn down and rebuilt, in
which case I question the extent to which we would call it "the same
store."

It sells the same things, is owned by the same people is in the same
place has the same staff. It's the same store.

Nobody speaking ordinary English would describe the building of a mall
to include a pre-existing store as "the store was replaced by a
mall."

Yeah, they would. If the store remained, but the mall was built
around it, then the building was replaced by a new building in many
(but not all) definitions. Local authorities, postally, even, in many
ways in the public perception.

I replaced my copy of "A Clockwork Orange" with "The Stanley Kubrick
Collection" which includes "A Clockwork Orange."
Well, here we get into questions of what constitutes identity for
different sorts of objects.

Exactly.

Was it the SAME story? Or a different copy of the story?

The story isn't the issue. The universe is.

The pre and post zero hour universes are the same universe, but the
story is different.

It's the same tape with a different song recorded on it.

In this case we have a concept of what "the same story" means - the same words,
even if recopied elsewhere - AND, more importantly, you can actually
CHECK to see if its the same story by comparing it to the old copy.

You're missing the point. The story isn't the issue, the universe is.

The story in Back to the Future changes, the universe remains the
same.

But I'm not sure we have the same concept of two universe being "the
same universe."

I am.

And, far more importantly, you have no way of
demonstrating that the Original Single Universe and the Earth-1
Universe are "the same universe,"

Lack of proof doesn't mean it isn't true. Just as lack of proof the
other way makes it false.

However, we remain with the fact that Earth-1 Superman servived Crisis
On Infinite Earths. He wasn't combined with the Earths he was
separate to that, that means that in the months between the end of
CoIE and the beginning of MOS the Earth-1 Superman was the Post-Crisis
Superman.

even if we use the concept of
sameness that we use for stories - because you have no way of
comparing the two. They're both universes; they both have Oas; more
detailed comparison seems impossible.

Possibly.

The restaurant replaced their old menu with a new expanded menu.
Same thing as with "story." You're using conceptual senses of "the
same" ("it has the same food items") that do not in any way refer to
object similarity ("oh, look, they've included the same food items
they had a few weeks ago, and a few more - doesn't that mean I can
find the actual menu I was holding in my hands a few weeks ago, the
one that still has my greasy fingerprints on it, inside this one?").

Yes. But you're the one the claimed that a multiverse can't replace a
universe and still contain that universe. Which is wrong.

Let's pretend that the Universe-A has it's own little crisis and is
replaced by The Multiverse... which contains Universe-A, Universe-B
and Universe-TinnedSpaghetti. Something can be replaced by something
and still exist as part of that thing.

Your rant was clearly wrong.

You claim about copies and stuff is misguided, too.

Jeff, out Health and Safety guy was replaced by our new Health and
Safety Department, which Jeff is now a part of.

Is it the real Jeff or is it a copy? "("oh, look, they've included
the same guy they had a few weeks ago, and a few more staff - doesn't
that mean I can find the actual guy I was holding in my hands a few
weeks ago, the one that still has my greasy fingerprints on it, inside
this department?").

Two universe can both have an Oa in them and not be the same universe.
That's easily demonstrated.

That point I conceed.

However, you're wrong about the word replace.

And you're wrong when you claim that the Earth-1 Superman who survived
Crisis isn't the same one who continued after Crisis.

===
= DUG.
===
.

Relevant Pages

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