Re: On the Ainur

Larry Swain <theswain@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dirk Thierbach wrote:
Larry Swain <theswain@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dirk Thierbach wrote:
Larry Swain <theswain@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

The power to remain incarnate, and once decarnate to reincarnate,
was lost to him because he had transferred so much his power into
the Ring,

THE REMARKS AS MADE CLEAR BOTH BY CONTEXT AND *EXPLICIT* STATEMENTS
DEAL WITH THE LOSS OF SAURON'S BODY AT THE END OF THE WAR OF THE
RING!!!!! GET IT YET??????? WHAT IS DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO
COMPREHEND ABOUT THIS?

It's difficult for me to comprehend why you make statements that are
wrong in general, and at most misleading when applied to the third
"death" of Sauron.

What does affect his ability to reincarnate is the complete *destruction*
of the Ring:

Which I again, explicitly pointed out. Again not sure what is difficult
for you to understand about this.

Ok, fine, then we are in violent agreement. Just change the sentence
above to

: The power to remain incarnate, and once decarnate to reincarnate,
: was lost to him because the power he had transferred into the Ring
: was lost with destruction of the Ring.

Problem solved? If I express myself in ways that can be misunderstood
(which is easy enough on Usenet), I just correct the phrasing, and
that's the end of it. Why is that so difficult?

In a general context, of course it wasn't "special". It was special
only as far as the mechanism is different from the other cases:

But then that makes every case "special", since no two disembodiments
result from the same mechanism.

The first two disembodiments of Sauron result from the same mechanism:
His body is killed (see below for the second case).

But in the third case, it's the reversion of causality which makes
it different from all the other cases. What's so difficult to understand
about that? If you don't think that this justifies the name "special",
fine with me. I won't quibble over names.

In the other cases, the body was destroyed, which in turn lead to
a weakening as described in letter #200.

Actually no. Just sticking with Sauron for a moment, Sauron's body died
in the wreck of Numenor, it was not destroyed, it died like the mortal
bodies of men in that disaster.

Sorry, by "his body was destroyed" I meant "his body was killed". I
didn't use "killed" because that already had lead to a
misunderstanding, but the alternative apparently wasn't any better.
There's of course no complete destruction of the body into little
pieces, or something similar ridiculous.

The difference is that the direction of causality in the one case
is the opposite of the direction of causality in the other cases:
Loss of power leads to loss of body, vs. loss of body leads to loss
of power.

Only in one case: at the fall of Numenor, loss of body lead to loss of
power. On Mt. Doom, it isn't until Isildur takes the Ring that Sauron's
hold on the body is weakened and he leaves to regather his strength.

No. At that point, the body is already dead. Letter #131:

Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of SLAYING SAURON. Isildur,
Elendil's son, cuts die ring from Sauron's hand, and his power
departs, and his spirit flees into the shadows.

[my emphasis]. He really only departs (and "is vanquished" as stated
in LotR) when the Ring is taken into possession by Isildur, maybe
because at that stage he has no hope of taking the Ring with him,
maybe because with the loss of the "rapport" of the Ring he sees
that the situtation as it is now is hopeless.

But the loss of his body and with it the loss of the "power" he
had invested into this body occurs before, when his body is slain
by Gil-galad and Elendil. At least that's how I read the letter.

- Dirk
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: On the Ainur
    ... when he already had made the Ring. ... lost the power to reincarnate because he had transferred power into ... I don't know how to make it any more explicit than I already have, but I will try once more for the dolt among us: THE REMARKS AS MADE CLEAR BOTH BY CONTEXT AND *EXPLICIT* STATEMENTS DEAL WITH THE LOSS OF SAURON'S BODY AT THE END OF THE WAR OF THE RING!!!!! ...
    (rec.arts.books.tolkien)
  • Re: On the Ainur
    ... when he already had made the Ring. ... lost the power to reincarnate because he had transferred power into ...
    (rec.arts.books.tolkien)
  • Re: Who is LOTR about?
    ... lost to him. ... If the power of the Ring were permanently ...
    (rec.arts.books.tolkien)
  • Why is 5...c5 a "powerful answer?"
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    (rec.games.chess.misc)
  • Re: On the Istaris self-incarnation and limitations (was Re: Aragorn)
    ... that either his Istar condition or the fact that his ring still existed ... (it could have lost "only" the power in rapport with the One) ... "The only power he has left is his voice," Gandalf. ...
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