Re: Anime Rants

On Aug 14, 9:30 am, Brian Henderson
<BrianL.Hender...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Starcade wrote:
And there's your problem: Without enforcement, it isn't the price
level that's the problem -- it's the fact that the only demand which
exists anymore is CRIMINAL DEMAND.

You don't understand basic economics. If you produce a product that
people want at a price they are willing to pay, people will buy the
product. If you produce a product that people want at a price they are
unwilling to pay, no matter how much "enforcement" you try to force on
people, they will still not buy it. All the force in the world doesn't
get you any customer loyalty, loyalty is earned, not forced.

There is a very major problem with your statement that you refuse to
understand:

People have no right to product they take under illegal circumstances.

The law of supply of demand is blown to pieces when the supply is
illegally inflated to the point where the same happens to demand.
What is happening now is, in NO WAY, customer loyalty. They have
about as much customer loyalty to anime as to something they would
*** all over and force the other person to eat, and then ask to do it
again.

They're stealing product they have no right to make (the fansubs
themselves) or consume. When a product is copyrighted and licensed,
it is done for the sole purpose of retaining a financial value to the
product. Hence, what happens then is that they can control the amount
of supply so that there is a relevant demand when the product is
legally released.

Otherwise, there's no point.

Again, your criminal conduct is not excused.

Otherwise...

I mean, consider: Under your umbrella, all a group of people wishing
to drive a store or industry out of business need to do is continue to
steal from it in a quantity at which the ruling authority has no power
to stop them. Then, it's the industry's fault they don't just hand
you everything you want, like the spoiled brats you are.

The problem being, you don't know the difference between theft and
copyright infringement. You can't steal something that doesn't
physically exist. I'm hardly surprised you're not bright enough to see
the difference though.

And there's your problem. At that point, there is no "property".
Intellectual property, and any means to protect it in any form or
measure, would then be a fraudulent concept.

You can absolutely steal a non-physical product -- the anime fandom
only exists because that many people do. Otherwise, the very concept
of copyright and licensure of same is FRAUDULENT (and illegal), since,
under your idea, intellectual property cannot exist. The product is
_legally_ worth nothing, and the attempt to sell it is quite
fraudulent to the "customer base".

But this whole "you can't steal a non-physical product" thing is
bull***. The entire computer-software industry depends on that fact
not being true. Otherwise, the entire computer industry is a similar
fraud.

(And you'd have a lot of agreement in that regard with a lot of people
on the Internet, by the way.)

The problem here is that the supply _WAS NEVER MEANT TO BE INFINITE_.

Never was.

The supply was MADE infinite through YOUR CRIMINAL CONDUCT.

Depends on what you're supplying. Are you supplying content or are you
supplying goods? If you're supplying content, you need to control the
initial distribution of that content such that one must purchase it
initially or you immediately lose control.

That's the main problem with the Internet. You need that kind of
control. I am all for censorship of the Internet _under certain
parameters_. The main parameter that I would be all for censorship of
the Internet is through authorization of access of pre-owned material.

If you don't own it, and have no right to view it, you aren't able to
view it. Otherwise, they have no right to sell it.

The problem with that is,
all of this content is initially shown on free-to-the-viewer,
"over-the-air" broadcast television where no one has to pay to sit down
and see it.

Only under very specific parameters. They don't license it to be
broadcast outside of certain areas (in this case, Japan).

What is happening is precisely what the anti-VCR people feared would
happen -- and the only reason it was not relevant at the time is
because the product was already paid for (or it would never be made).
That's not the case with anime, and you see it in shortcuts and in the
piss-pay they give the actual animators.

So right off the bat, being a content-provider and trying
to sell to the end-consumer is a losing proposition at best. People can
record the program when it airs in a variety of mediums, at best you
might get a decent viewership on the first run but after that, many
people have either seen it and don't want to see it again or they've got
it archived and don't need your help (or your advertiser's help) to see
it again. The traditional business model for this supplier is to make
the best show you can that will attract the largest number of viewers
you can and thus, the greatest advertising dollars you can get. The
only logical way someone can "steal" from these people is to
re-broadcast the content and somehow take away the advertising dollars
from the original provider, something that's pretty difficult to do.

Absolutely not -- in fact, it's another thing the fansubbers do when
they wipe the commercials out.

In theory, every episode of I Love Lucy is floating around out in space
for anyone who wants to watch it to do so. Are we going to sue alien
species for copyright infringement if they watch a couple of episodes?

If it costs Desilu (or whoever owns it now) money and can be
demonstrated to do so, the only question would be jurisdiction.

You're left, then, with being a goods-provider, selling the content in a
particular format that makes it convenient for repeated viewing, such as
DVDs.

The problem is, then, that that's already dead, and the entire concept
of you being a goods-provider is fraudulent to the "consumer" of said
"goods", since you have no real right, then, to provide such goods, as
they were given away beforehand.

At that point, you are providing NOTHING. You are no different from a
homeless bum trying to scam people selling free newspapers, in that
situation. Your only prayer is to control supply, and, if you cannot
do that (draconian means if necessary), you have NOTHING to sell.

Again, the concept that force (even majuere) is a requirement to
maintain financial value works both ways.

Inherently, these are going to bring in a much smaller audience
than a content provider because, as I pointed out, most people have seen
it already, many people have archived it already, you're only
appealing to people who want a permanent professionally-made archive,

Which, in anime, is only a minute fraction (< 5%) of anime viewed.

perhaps with additional features that were not shown publically. The
business model for this supplier is to produce the best packaging and
product you can in hopes of attracting the hard-core fans who want a
permanent archive. The only logical way to "steal" from these people is
to break into their warehouse and make off with their physical products.

But the problem is that the anime is not the product in your
scenario. At that point, the "professionally made archive" is and is,
then, demonstrated useless.

Nobody in their right mind is going to double-quintuple the licensing
cost of an anime by translating it, at that point.

The mistake that most people make, including you, is that either of
these models "deserves" to succeed, simply because they exist.

The problem is that they MUST succeed for ANY model to exist.
Otherwise, you're trying to sell free product.

Content-providers fail all the time because they fail to produce shows
that people want to watch, thus failing to attract advertisers, thus
they go out of business. Goods-providers either choose content that
doesn't have a sufficient fan-base or do a poor job in producing a
product that said fan-base is willing to purchase.

The problem is that for ANY product to have a base willing to
purchase, force MUST be used. Otherwise, why not walk in and steal it
all? Intellectual property product is no different in this regard,
and that's why your "you can't steal 'intellectual "property"'"canard
is idiocy. It kills all intellectual property rights in one fell
swoop.

Otherwise, stop going after the bootleggers too. The owners and
licensees have no less right to go after the fansubbers than they do
the bootleggers, because the only question there is packaging.

Again, what is the product?

Licensing a product
does not guarantee you that people will want to see your end-product.

Absolutely not. BUT: It HAS TO guarantee that people who want to see
your end-product will have to pay for that end-product to see it --
otherwise, there is nothing to license or sell, and the content-
provider goes splat.

And there's your problem, Brian. You don't get that there are very
important rights gained through the law (and only through the law) by
content-providers and their licensees. The fans cleanly, clearly, and
repeatedly abrogate it.

Just because Warner Bros. licensed Harry Potter doesn't obligate fans of
the books to go see the movies.

But it does obligate the fans to pay for the privilege of doing so
before the movies end up on television or DVD. That's your problem
that you continually refuse to understand.

When an entity gets a license or a copyright, they have bought the
absolute right to control supply. You and yours have violated that in
the extreme.

Sorry, that's just not possible. It might be the theory but the theory
doesn't work in the real world.

Then there is no "intellectual property" and nothing in these realms
is saleable at all. Steal it all, because it's worth nothing to begin
with, right?

The entire concept of copyright is the right to copy -- it's in the
word. The licensees have _purchased_ the right, under limited
circumstances, to disseminate that product.

This is why I openly fear (for the anime industry) some of the
misguided rulings and concepts I've heard. Because, if you are right,
then the only result which must come is the complete nullification of
copyright and ownership of ANY currently-copyrightable work.

Because, with your ideology, copyright does not work in the real
world, and no such protection, without significant control over the
Internet, is plausible.

Content providers might own the
copyright on their work but they cannot legitimately control people who
save it on their DVR or burn it on a DVD or show it to their friends no
matter how much the law says they ought to be able to.

There's a problem with that -- actually, two...

1) The license provided with the DVR/DVD does allow _private
performance_ of a legally obtainable product.

(Note that this doesn't even really apply to conventions, meaning that
cons really need to ask permission before screening.)

2) We aren't just talking about legally obtained product. We're
talking about illegally-obtained product -- if there is such a thing
as fansubbery being illegally-obtained product.

You can pass all the laws you want that say you have control over gravity, it doesn't
make it so.

So the fans can just spit all over the industry with impunity? What
arrogance...

This is especially impossible when, as we've already seen,
the content providers have already thrown all of this content out into
the public eye for free.

AND IT STILL DOESN'T SATISFY THE POPULACE.

Supply and demand, my fucking ass -- you fuckers blew that up when the
digisub fansub entities became the main distribution angle, to the
tune of, by some estimates, 95% of the anime watched in America.

Because these fansub entities are typically the only ones producing the
product people want! Why can't you get it through your thick skull?

Because the product is free _AND ILLEGAL_. You don't think that isn't
the draw here, you idiot?

Free is quite good enough, but the fact that it's illegal is appealing
to a lot of these people.

Fans want to see the shows as soon after their Japanese airing as
humanly possible. Period. What you're saying is "we're going to do
whatever we want and the fans have to like it, so there!"

Yes. The continuance of anime demands that stand. Otherwise, the
money is NOT THERE TO CONTINUE.

The number of new series Spring 2007 -> Spring 2009 has already
halved. It's probably going to halve again very soon when the Fall
2008 - present depression is finally taken into effect, since many of
the Spring 2009 projects were done before the derivatives bubble
finally blasted apart.

This is why you are seeing studios and companies fall apart, cut their
corners, and cut their output.

Are you that goddamn stupid?

Are you that goddamn arrogant??

I feel insulted to have paid $90 for two volumes of Ouran High School
Host Club because your arrogance has forced Funimation to give the
entire series (sub and dub) away for free on its own site within six
months of the DVD release.

In fact, I feel defrauded. By you.

The fans want fast release and downloadable content. If the legitimate
copyright holders cannot provide it, they'll go with whoever can.

Then *** the fans. They aren't fans at that point.

The only good fansubber is one who's in jail or dead now. And that
could probably go for 80%+ of the anime fandom as well. If the
legitimate copyright holders are at the mercy of an arrogant bunch of
pitbulls (which is what you are, collectively), then they will be
eaten. Many of them already have been!

If the legitimate copyright holders want to combat the fansubs, they have
to MAKE PRODUCTS PEOPLE WANT!

THEY CANNOT!!!

In every case where the legitimate
copyright holders have released online episodes within a week of their
Japanese airing, they've MADE MONEY!

False.

Utterly false.

Completely false.

And I have no fucking understanding why you continue to so blatantly
lie about the situation.

In most every case the legitimate holders have done this, they've had
it stolen (in some cases, even BEFORE THE JAPANESE AIRING).

So quit lying to me, you goddamned shill for the pirates, thieves, and
fucktards!

It works for TV episodes,

Only because they are already paid for, unlike anime.

it works for music, sites like iTunes make *BILLIONS* every year doing exactly
that.

Only because of the widely-publicized enforcement mechanisms of the
RIAA. The music industry fails completely the moment a judge finally
strikes down the RIAA's ability to go after the end-user downloaders.

(which I expect almost any day now)

If American companies would put Bleach episode 300, just to make
up a number, subtitled on iTunes or Hulu or some other site, one week or
less after it's Japanese premiere at $1.99 or something reasonable,
they'd make a ton of money.

No. And here's where math denies you...

OK, let's say they did that. The average anime license costs about
$30-33,000 an episode (at least as of 18 months ago). How much money
do you take out of that $1.99 for the service provider (iTunes, Hulu,
etc. and so forth)...

Take that resulting number and divide it into the license cost, and
that's how many downloads you have to _sell_ (key word there) to get
it done.

And any of these arrogant little children in the "fan"base will
understand completely: "Why am I paying for something I can steal
from my coke supplier over here?"

Download-for-pay has failed, repeatedly, for anime.

Otherwise, it'd have overtaken the DVD model as the main legal
dissemination model a long time ago!

It's their own technological stupidity and
short-sightedness that keeps them from making a profit, not piracy.

No. Because if there were no piracy, then the demand would be in
check and the supply would be controlled.

And this is why you don't get that it DOESN'T WORK HERE...

That's an excuse. It *HAS* to work here, sorry. It has to be made to
work here, otherwise they don't deserve to stay in business.

It DOESN'T and WON'T. And that's the reason why I do not believe they
will stay in business and I blame YOU (personally and collectively).

In fact, I'll take it one step further that I've said numerous times:
I firmly assert the abject failure of the anime industry to be the
_desired goal_.

The (American) TV series is long paid for, probably a number of times
over. If it weren't, it gets canned, even before release or after
just one episode if necessary.

American companies need to learn how to negotiate with Japanese
companies for worthwhile licensing fees.

Then the Japanese go under, as many of them already have. The
Japanese have to hold enough of a line on licensing fees for anime
series to allow those series to be completed, as has been repeatedly
demonstrated necessary in many cases.

If it's true that the Japanese
need American money to stay in business, they're going to have to learn,
like it or not, that they have to make it financially worthwhile for
American companies to license their shows.

Then far fewer shows will be licensed. I'd assert we are heading into
George Manley Territory (5-10 shows a year) quite quickly.

The Japanese are starting to
figure this out but I'll admit it's been a long, slow process.

And, as a result, are telling their member studios to forget the R1
industry entirely. (I believe the TV Tokyo head has said so directly
-- and if not the head of that studio, one of the others...)

American companies are just as much to blame though, they are willing to pay too
much to license a show for which they don't have a market to recoup
their expenses. If the fee is too high... DON'T LICENSE IT!

Then there will be NO LICENSES. We're getting close to that now.

In fact, you're seeing that now.

Let the Japanese sit on it and lose money, sooner or later they'll figure out
that they need to be more reasonable or they'll never sell to the
American market.

I think they're giving up on the American market, to be blunt and
honest with you.

But, again, this is all because of YOUR CRIMINAL CONDUCT.

I'm sick of seeing criminal conduct get rewarded. Hell, it's almost
as if I should've expected to marry Deborah Gibson, the way criminal
conduct seems to get rewarded in this country.

The fact is, you, like the American anime market, only think in terms of
what's always been done. They've always done it that way so that's the
only way they can. I'm sure horse-drawn carriage makers felt the same
way when the automobile came along and that's why they're out of
business now. You have to grow and adapt and evolve constantly or you
go under. Like it or not, these companies need to develop good business
practices and forward-thinking policies. Far too many of them are run
by anime fanboys who overspend for their licenses because it's something
they've personally got an anime hardon over and then can't figure out
why they lose money.

THEY CANNOT!! You don't get this.

The only thing they could do is put padlocks over their doors and walk
away.

Let me give you a mathematical example:

Used to be that a good DVD would be $29.99 for 4 episodes, with the
company getting about half.

$30K/ep for licensure, average $65K/ep for dubbing/ADR, and we'll keep
it simple at that.

$29.99/4 eps gets the company about $3.75/ep. This requires about
23,000 sales or so.

But wait, that's too expensive for you. So, now, it's $24.99 for 4
eps.

That gets the company about $3.12/ep. Now, you're over 30,000
required to break even.

But wait, THAT'S too expensive. Now, $49.99 for 13.

That gets the company about $2/ep (a little less, but I'll be
generous). 47,500 now.

Now you want it to be the same price for many American season sets.
What, you want 100,000 copies sold to be required to break even??

We all know Gen Fukunaga wants to slice the licensing fees, but if he
does that too much, the Japanese can't finish the product.

The only way to slice the ADR fees further is to say bye-bye to all
dubs.

With one caveat you continue to choose to forget: Making that kind of
a console (the "chipped console" and the like) is not that common.
They ever mass-produce those, and the industry is finished, exactly as
you purport, and for that reason.

Chips are freely, easily and cheaply found online if you just use Google
and beyond that, like I said, there are emulators that run on your
computer that don't require a chip or a console at all. The industry is
doing just fine, making billions.

29% loss YoY July 2008-2009. Try again.

The consoles, especially PS2, have to be pre-built for that kind of
stuff. If it were that easy, there'd have been no seventh-generation
consoles -- the industry would not have survived this long.

It is *NOT* because of the optimal price-point. The Web 2.0
Generation has declared all optimal price-points to be zero. They
only buy video games because they don't have access to the chipped
consoles necessary in enough numbers to drive the video game people
out of business.

I'm glad some analyst in an office somewhere pulled a figure out of his
ass. Too bad it's laughable. Sort of like you.

Do you get out of your sorry home in that backwards hick town of
yours?

Seriously??

THERE IS NO PRICE THEY ARE WILLING TO PAY.

Because you say so, all evidence to the contrary. Gotcha.

No, all evidence supports it. They only pay because they are FORCED
TO BY LAW.

Even if they are absolute *** which makes it look as if the entire
process has been set back a decade. Oh yeah, that'll inspire the
rebound...

Fansubbers can manage it. Are you saying professional companies are
worse than fansubbers?

When they have to cut corners BECAUSE OF THE FANSUBBERS?

Mike
.

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