Re: Dead fish in a clean tank. (my take on Melafix...long)

Can you give me any idea of the dose rate to start with though Roy as the only bottles of pp I've seen here (many years ago now) had precious little on the labelling?

Roy wrote: 
PP is  not really classed as a medicine. Its just a super strong
oxidizer that most fish and other things can tolerate. Bleach is also
a good oxidizer but not much can tolerate it, at least the things you
do not wish to harm. For the ost part, PP just does away with any
nasties and lets the fishes own immune system take over without having
to work overtime  to get over the hump.

Biggest mistake most folks make with it is not figuring out the
correct water capacty and amount of PP needed to do the job. Talk
about the pucker factor was when I took on doseing my first pond, and
trying to come up with its capacity. Its not a given shape, and varies
considerably, and even just a rain or dry spell changes all my
figures. Onc eyou starat and have it dosed its all over but the
waiting....as its impossible to counteract the PP due to $$$$ costs it
wold take to treat the amount of water in them, but you can use
hydrogen peroixde or most any water conditioner to couter a PP
treatment going south on you in smaller envirionments. Even the pros
have been know to screw up using it like Doc Johnson, who overdosed
and wiped out many thousands of dollars worth of champion koi....
.
I may just get a pico sized tank setup and cylced with LS/LR and a
mushroom or two and some other cheap or fragged items of things I have
and introduce a typical Petco Damsel to it and see what happens.

The brown stain is a result of all the unwated junk being
oxidized....it will dissapear with time or extra filtration, or by
using hydrogen peroxide or water conditioner after the 6 to 8 hour
time frame has elapsed. It gets to be some really nasty looking stuff
during that time frame though and gets your mind to thinking did I do
the right thing......It reminds you of what the inside of a  full
septic tank would look like .thick nasty "skimtimate looking junk,
lots of foamy brown/black scum and bubbles. I had 50 watt submersible
lights in 12 inches of water in one area and they were not able to be
seen for about 2 days afterwards. After a treatment its readily
apparent which fish may have had a fungus you did not notice or some
other problem as there will be brown stained areas on its
body........Some colors of fish in a large natural pond are just hard
to get a close look at, but there is no second guessing once its dosed
with PP and yu see the brown spots showing. So let me see what I can
dig up on useing PP in sw and start to setup a small tank...yet
something else to fool with.  I know the fish can be caught and placed
in a QT setup and you would not have to worry about inverts, corals
etc, but I am also interested in seeing if it has any adverse effects
on them as well,  and what it may do to any pods, beneficial bacteria
etc etc, which antibiotic and other meds seem to wipe out in the
coarse of treatment.

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:11:21 GMT, Wayne Sallee <Wayne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:

<>That was a nice experiment. It's always good to see <>experiments like that. It's been *many* years since I've <>used pp in tanks. I'm not big on dumping medecins in the <>tank. One nice thing about pp is that you are left with <>just potasium, wich is quite natural and nontoxic, though <>it does stain brown. People often use a medicine, and the <>fish get better, but it's not known how much the medicine <>actualy worked. PP has been used in reef tanks in low <>doses to oxidize nutrients, but I don't recall anyone <>using it in reef tanks for medicinal purposes. One sorce <>for pp is the companies that sell whole house water <>purfification systems that use pp, such as Culligan.
<>The use of pp in aquariums has been around for many many <>years, but it's never realy become popular.
<>
<>Wayne Sallee
<>Wayne's Pets
<>Wayne@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<>
<>
<>Roy wrote on 1/24/2006 8:25 AM:
<>> I have never seen mention of PP in any of the saltwater forums. I
<>> mention PP to my frieind that owns a LFS and he shudders. He has a lot
<>> of experieince with livestock and has a natural pond that had
<>> problems, and it was recomended by biologists to hit it with
<>> PP.............and he messed up......needless to say what the outcome
<>> was. I use PP 2 x a year on both my ponds as a prophylactic...I
<>> oxidize them late fall, and early spring.......and I use it whenever
<>> needed on most of my tropicals in tanks etc........So far knock on
<>> wood have not had any saltwater health issues. Prophylactic doseing
<>> with PP has made a big improvement in my natural ponds water quality
<>> and fish health since I started doing it. Its good at reducing any
<>> nutrients so it helps with algae blooms and rich water which also has
<>> an effect overall on my ponds fish health caused by these conditions,
<>> mainly ulcers, fungal and fin / tail/mouth rot etc... One pond is 1.68
<>> million gallons and the other is a bit over 2.9 million gallons so I
<>> do consume quite a few pounds of PP every year on just prophylactic
<>> stuff. It may be hard top get in your country though as here in the
<>> USA its watched by the DEA and BATF folks pretty close and you need a
<>> permit and compliance papers to buy any large quanities. I use
<>> Technical grade. PP is al;so in big demand by the back yard drug
<>> makers, and it can also be used as an oxidizer in making homebrew
<>> explosives so since 9/11 it gets pretty close scrutinization. However
<>> its stll available in small quanities at exhorborant prices. Doc
<>> Johnson the world reknown koi vet gets $25 for a 3 ounce
<>> container.....I buy 55 pound pails for $48..
<>> <>> To determine the amount I need I use the standard recomended dose, but
<>> test a water sample first with a few different dosses. This is called
<>> a demand test, which consists of a given amount of water with X amount
<>> of PP added, and then wait and see how long the color lasts, and make
<>> my final decision as to the dosage rate from the demand test results.
<>> Object of the ordeal is to maintain the purple/pink color in the water
<>> for a minimum of 6 hours and no more than 8. However its also possible
<>> to give a fish a short term bath/dip in a somewhat stronger than
<>> normal solution of PP as well.......But its use in SW has gone
<>> unanswered for me to......I just may have to email a friend at the
<>> University of Florida that works the fish biology section and see what
<>> he can find out... If any place would know, thr U of F certainly will.
<>> The damsels thelocal petco sells are infested with fin and tail rot
<>> problems and various other diseases, and they are cheap enough to try
<>> it on if its useable in SW......what I would do with damsels
<>> afterwards would be my big problem........not a big fan of them by any
<>> means.
<>> <>> You can use anything I post, its no problem with me.......I tried to
<>> do my experiment as close and equal across the board as I could.
<>> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:19:55 +1000, miskairal <mehiding@Oz> wrote:
<>> <>>>><>Awesome!
<>>>><>Thankyou for this info Roy as I have freshwater fish as well and in Oz <>>>><>we can't buy antibiotics for fish. When I was nursing we used it a lot <>>>><>in baths for kids with infected sores (usually from scabies). Personally <>>>><>I prefer to avoid antibiotics anyway.
<>>>><>
<>>>><>Would you allow me to reproduce this post of yours at guppylog.com which <>>>><>I visit frequently? We have often discussed the use of melafix and <>>>><>potassium permanganate but none of us have anything near as conclusive <>>>><>as your info.
<>>>><>
<>>>><>Could you also tell us how you used the pp? ie. what strength did you <>>>><>make it, how often did you add it etc. With the kids baths we used to <>>>><>make the water pink, not purple, and bathe them twice a day.
<>>>><>
<>>>><>Ditto to Mike's question - can it be used in a salt water setup?
<>>>><>
<>>>><>Thanks again
<>>>><>miskairal
<>>>><>
<>>>><>
<>>>><>Roy wrote:
<>>>><>> There is a mixed school on the benefits or lack there of on MelaFix.
<>>>><>> Anti biotics work, thats a given, but its hard to say MF does/would
<>>>><>> /won't. NOt to make a long post out of this reply but I am into Koi
<>>>><>> and ornamental goldfish, and belong to a few other web forums...Fin
<>>>><>> and tail and mouth rot are a big concern and there is a ton of
<>>>><>> various meds out there thats sold and claims to be the preferred
<>>>><>> treatment. I was given all kinds of info on various treatments, such
<>>>><>> as adding salt, (talking freshwater here now) malachite green
<>>>><>> w/formalin, antibiotics, Potassium Permangante dip, or just water
<>>>><>> changes, and a few other well know but variant of one of the above
<>>>><>> meds.
<>>>><>> <>>>><>> I went and set up 6 10, gal tanks all equipped identical filtration
<>>>><>> etc and filled with water made up as a large single 500 gal batch.
<>>>><>> Then I went to town and started to try and find 200 decrepit eat up
<>>>><>> bacterial infested feeder type goldfish...was not hard to find, as all
<>>>><>> I had to do was visit Wal MArt or Petco. Wal MArt was higher in price
<>>>><>> and did not have anywhere near enough so off to Petco...where I
<>>>><>> scored.....and bought 200+ pityfully inflicted feeders...
<>>>><>> <>>>><>> I put 15 fish in each tank, and each tank was treated with a med.
<>>>><>> Tank #1 I used nothing but water changes for one tank, absolutely no
<>>>><>> meds, #2 tank had salt added, Tank #3 used antibiotics in it, Tank #4
<>>>><>> I used Potassium permanganate (2 full long term treatments) Tank#5 I
<>>>><>> used Melafix in #6 I dosed with malachite green/formalin
<>>>><>> treatment.....To make a long story short, the fish treated with
<>>>><>> Potassium Permanganate healed up and were cured the fastest, and their
<>>>><>> treatment was over within 24 hours and showed signs of heaing within 3
<>>>><>> days, followed by antibiotics which took better than 2 weeks for
<>>>><>> full recomended treatment and to see noticeable impvement, and then
<>>>><>> the tank with nothing but water changes(50% daily). Malachite Green
<>>>><>> and formalin treatment came in next but took close to 3 weeks total
<>>>><>> and melafix treatment was dead last. I had mortalities in all tanks
<>>>><>> and the M/G, salt, and Melafix had the most casualties.......After it
<>>>><>> was all over with, I again separated the fish into good healthy fish
<>>>><>> and still sick fish and placed them in 2, 55 gal tanks. I just allowed
<>>>><>> the good ones to get fat and nice, and treated the balance in the
<>>>><>> still sick tank with PP, and got them all on the road to good health.
<>>>><>> IIRC I had a total of 62 fatalities out of 200+ feeders that I bought,
<>>>><>> and all were treated in the end and those that survived were released
<>>>><>> in an enclosure in my large natural pond and best I can tell have been
<>>>><>> doing just fine short of natural predation occurances.
<>>>><>> <>>>><>> I then decided to see what it took to clean up the tanks I had used
<>>>><>> for my experiment. I am a firm believer in Potassium Permanganate, at
<>>>><>> least for fresh water, and dosed all 6 tanks with the usual cleanup
<>>>><>> dose of PP. All tanks but the melafix tank cleaned right up and I
<>>>><>> would not be afraid to use that water in the other 5 tanks if I had
<>>>><>> to. But I had to hit that melafix treated tank 2 more times until I
<>>>><>> was able to get the PP to retain its color for more than the usual 6
<>>>><>> to 8 hour timeframe. Melafix just adds so much junk to a tanks water
<>>>><>> its hard to eliminate it, so I definately would not ever want to see
<>>>><>> it put in a display tank. ABout all I can say from my experiment and a
<>>>><>> lot of well known individuals in the koi world is melafix is snake oil
<>>>><>> as is pima fix. Its good to mask a foul smelling tank if you like the
<>>>><>> vicks vapor rub type smell, but for curing fish, I have my doubts, and
<>>>><>> believe if your also doing the associated water changes, its those
<>>>><>> water changes that gave the fish a chance and helped heal it not the
<>>>><>> melafix.....End of rant on the snakeoil xxxxFIX's...
<>> <>> 


.

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