Re: Cannibal cichlids - advice please!

"Flash Wilson" <flash@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:slrndsijjr.b1a.flash@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:08:19 -0500, NetMax <computeralias@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
>
> *flash sighs in relief at the prospect of a full and useful answer
> from Netmax - THANK YOU! :) *

I can promise you a 'full' response, though its usefullness will
certainly vary. The trouble is the variability of these fish, leading
hobbyists to have slightly to significantly different experiences with
them. Ironically (to your title of cannibals), the fish are probably
being killed off by the herbivores in the group ;~).

>>besides already having a huge in-species
>>variability due to personality, size and habits from origin, the
>>problem
>>of compatibility is further exasperated (and that is the correct word)
>>by
>>pecking order expectations (and the territorial pressures which
>>result).
>
> Ok...
>
>>Re-arranging the terrain does not wipe their memory of each other.
>
> Right. Although, before I added the new fish, I had a lot of work
> to do with the terrain to provide enough hiding places of different
> sizes, but they are obviously quite capable of changing the terrain
> themselves anyway, if the huge gravel pyramids are anything to go by.

Re-arranging terrain before adding fish is still a good idea, as it
resets the territorial rights, and in the chaos of having them
re-established, it allows the new fish to slip into the lower rungs of
the pecking order. The trouble is if you have a dominant fish intent on
killing a select group of others, then reseting the environment only
typically causes a delay in what would normally happen anyways.

>>Removing the fish are returning them to the problem tank will also
>>sometimes not work at all (they remember each other and the unresolved
>>positions of conflict that they are in), or if it works, it's temporary
>>until they fall back into a pattern.
>
> Yep, I've got it to work with tiger barbs but not with anything else.
>
>>Using the NetMax scale of aggression (which I am now making up)
>
> :D
>
>>-pea***: from 3 to 7, depending on tank-mates, alpha male. Generally
>>not overly territorial at lower levels, prefers open water at level of
>>confidence, and generally not requiring total dominance (dependant on
>>tank-mates of course).
>
> I would say mine is a 1. It's the biggest thing in the tank but as I
> said, old and cranky. To be honest, when the tank was near-empty
> recently
> he got sick, cloudy eye and panting. I left him to it, thinking it
> would
> soon be time to consider euthanasia, but he recovered. This was several
> weeks ago. He hides a lot, but comes out to eat. He keeps himself to
> himself even though he could have the other guy's asses if he wanted.
>
> I didn't mean to just have one, but he's still there, and he does no
> harm (and doesn't suffer) so he can stay as long as he likes. Apart
> from waste production I discount him to be honest.
>
>>-hornet (pseudotropheus crabro): from 6 to 8 Pseudostropheus in general
>>tend to be instigators, expending much energy on advancing up the
>>pecking
>>order.
>
> The male is a bit pecky, the female more active but doesn't chase the
> others. The other fish will swim out of their way but I've never seen
> any problems from them. They have always ruled the tank and will
> continue
> to do so, but they dont seem bothered by the other fish at all now they
> have company.

For the fish to keep clear of them, the crabro have established
themselves high up. The distance which the fish maintain between
themselves and the crabro's face is sometimes indicative of how much
abuse the crabro dishes out to maintain its status. If the crabro stops
in mid water and turns and a radius around him is suddenly clear of fish,
then there is some aggression going on, when they are not being observed.

Sometimes the alpha fish (of the tank) will allow species alphas to
exercise their rights on others (leading to lots of casualties). Other
times the tank alpha will not tolerate aggressive behaviour and will jump
between them to break up the fight. This is the benign 'ruler' you want.
I think a tank-alpha crabro would be more likely to allow the other fish
to fight it out and not get involved too much. A tank-alpha Zebra can go
either way. Sometimes they are so full of themselves, that no one is
allowed to fight, so he effectively becomes the cop keeping the peace
(when actually he probably just wants no changes in the pecking order
which might produce new challengers).

>>-mooris: 3 to 6, these fish really don't belong anywhere near
>>pseudotropheus other than in very large tanks. They are open water
>>fish,
>
> Oh dear :( They are the ones that are smallest and seem happiest!
> OOooops. They were the last in the store so came as a freebie, which
> obviously I shouldn't have accepted! I'm trying to think what their
> behaviour reminds me of... probably danios or something which is
> fast, nimble and un bothered by the others. I thought they might be
> dinner if anyone was, but they are fine!

Mooris are like puppy dogs. They will occasionally blunder where they
shouldn't be and get chased out. As long as there are other more serious
threats, no one will concentrate on them. In the benign ruler scenario,
they are relatively safe. In the absent ruler scenario (tank alpha lets
the tank run amok, occasionally beating the wits out of someone), their
safety depends on the instability of the pecking order (less stable =
safer for them). In the cruel ruler scenario (tank alpha wants everyone
out), then they suffer badly, being easy prey. Mooris will establish a
pecking order amongst themselves (bascially spawning rights) and will not
figure into the mbuna pecking order unless they live long enough to be
able to, and need to. In large tanks, they don't need to, and don't get
involved with the chaos below them, except when chasing food to the
bottom, and even then they will typically concede the rights to the more
aggressive mbuna.

>>-johanni: 5 to 7, typically they tend to be mellow enough to experiment
>>with mixing and aggressive enough to hold their own except against more
>>fearless pseudotropheus, or other melachromis (ie: chipokae, auratus).
>
> As you know from my "yellow cichlid ID" question, they weren't what
> I thought I was getting. Oh well. They seem the shyest but are a great
> shape for bending in and out of the rocks so they don't get bothered.

Johanni seem to be smart in this regard. With their smaller size, they
make themselves more trouble than it's worth to catch, and they don't
push for high rights in the pecking order, preferring a middle pole
position. They can be surprisingly effective at holding this mid-point
position (imo), so another fish being pushed down to just ahead of them
may find themselves behind them rather quickly.

>>-pseudo est : (renamed Maylandia and then Metriclima es), this is
>>potentially (and typically) your bad boy, a 7 or 8.
>
> Yet another fish that was mislabelled in the shop. And I noted the
> names when I did my homework, rather than taking photos to double
> check I WAS looking up the right thing. Oops.
>
> They do seem to be the bad boys! They are picking on *each other*
> mainly though - would it help to get more so the group is bigger, or
> would that be a death knell for the others?

I'm not overly fond of the Zebra group because they have even less
predictability than many of the others, alternating between being a
nuisance and being killers. A species tank of only Zebras would be an
excellent social experiment, but mixing them with other similar species
produces too much variability in results. Occasionally mbuna communities
call a truce, take a vote, and working with some degree of cooperation,
they will attack and kill a fish which would previously have been
observed to not have been involved in the day to day chaos of the
community. I see this happen much more often when there are Zebras or
Tropheus in the community. Adding more Zebras to tank where Zebras are a
problem, can go either way, but typically the new fish are fodder.

>>-pseudo soc: 5 to 6, like the johanni in the melanochromis family,
>>socolofi does not share the same aggressive extremes as its
>>pseudotropheus cousins. Puts up a good 'show' but quickly drops down
>>the
>>pecking order.
>
> That's exactly how they are behaving. Bother, I really really like
> these. They are my favourites, so beautiful. They show much better
> colour in my tank than they did in the shop. So it seems if I like
> them, I have to restock and then condemn them to a life of being
> chased. Ach. That's NOT good!
>
>>Advice? Lose two species (ie: Zebras and Hornets) and add more fish
>>(ie:
>>Labs & Powder Blues) ?
>
> Okeydoke... Hmm. I don't like labs really. My shop only does the
> electric
> yellows! But now I know what they really look like, I'd kill for a
> whole
> tank of powder blues! Ok...

Behaviourally, Labs are similar to your Blues and make an attractive
color contrast. Adding more Johanii works as well, but raises the tank
tension slightly higher (still much much lower than having Zebras and
Hornets in there).

> (And I have to remember it's not down to what's "pretty" because an
> empty tank with one fat fish is much less pretty than a well managed
> tank of compromise fish!)

Oscar owners would contest that ;~).

>> I would normally add more peacocks, but you are
>>probably better off leaving the one Alpha to rule the noose.
>
> Especially as he is completely passive.

Hmm, adding more Peacocks could have very mixed results, and would likely
increase the mid-water tension level which is not normally desirable but
can have good overall results. Definitely ymmv. It would start the
development of another more distinct pecking order (eventually as the
fish reached adulthood) bringing your passive Pea*** into the fray.
Given the small size of the tank, I'd probably not recommend it.

>>Ironically Red Zebras sometimes
>>make very good benevolent rulers (after they have blazed a path through
>>the lesser fish ;~). hth
>
> Does that mean I should let them work it out? Or give it a bit
> longer to see if they do? I think it was them who picked on the
> others, and now are picking on each other instead.

The tank will stabilize, but the stock level when it does is not very
predictable. If you had an alpha Melanochromis auratus instead of a
Zebra problem, it would be much more predictable ;~). I suspect your
carnage has a way to go before it settles down. Your exact mixture of
fish could be living very harmoniously (relatively) if they were all
added at the same time as juveniles. Adding mbuna to a mbuna tank is
often opening pandora's box of trouble.

> I still don't know what to do! But at least I have some ideas.

Good, that's the best I could expect.

> You said the mooriis don't belong... but you don't suggest returning
> them, which surprises me. What's the reasoning?

Because I felt you were looking to tone down the aggression level, and
the Mooris contribute to a more passive environment (Johanii, Blues,
Pea*** etc).

> Thank you so much for your long and helpful answer.
> I feel so ashamed by my incompetence. I should have known going
> from community tank to malawi would not be as easy as all that!

Success with 'extreme' fish like mbuna tends to more heavily favour
experience & luck, than research. Do note however that you're mixing
some herbivores with omnivores, so you're going to have to drop their
diet to the lowest common denominator (veggy diet), and just slip your
mooriis some bloodworms when no one else is looking ;~). Just mentioning
that as it might influence how you want to change the mix of fish around.

ps: As much as I can help, don't hesitate to ask :o)
--
www.NetMax.tk

> --
> Flash Wilson - Web Design & Mastery - 0870 401 4061 / 07939 579090
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