Re: Cannibal cichlids - advice please!

Flash Wilson wrote: 
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:08:19 -0500, NetMax <computeralias@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

*flash sighs in relief at the prospect of a full and useful answer
from Netmax - THANK YOU! :) *


besides already having a huge in-species variability due to personality, size and habits from origin, the problem of compatibility is further exasperated (and that is the correct word) by pecking order expectations (and the territorial pressures which result). 


Ok...


Re-arranging the terrain does not wipe their memory of each other. 


Right. Although, before I added the new fish, I had a lot of work
to do with the terrain to provide enough hiding places of different
sizes, but they are obviously quite capable of changing the terrain
themselves anyway, if the huge gravel pyramids are anything to go by.


Removing the fish are returning them to the problem tank will also sometimes not work at all (they remember each other and the unresolved positions of conflict that they are in), or if it works, it's temporary until they fall back into a pattern. 


Yep, I've got it to work with tiger barbs but not with anything else.


Using the NetMax scale of aggression (which I am now making up) 


:D


-pea***: from 3 to 7, depending on tank-mates, alpha male. Generally not overly territorial at lower levels, prefers open water at level of confidence, and generally not requiring total dominance (dependant on tank-mates of course).


I would say mine is a 1. It's the biggest thing in the tank but as I
said, old and cranky. To be honest, when the tank was near-empty recently
he got sick, cloudy eye and panting. I left him to it, thinking it would
soon be time to consider euthanasia, but he recovered. This was several
weeks ago. He hides a lot, but comes out to eat. He keeps himself to himself even though he could have the other guy's asses if he wanted.

I didn't mean to just have one, but he's still there, and he does no
harm (and doesn't suffer) so he can stay as long as he likes. Apart
from waste production I discount him to be honest.


-hornet (pseudotropheus crabro): from 6 to 8 Pseudostropheus in general tend to be instigators, expending much energy on advancing up the pecking order. 


The male is a bit pecky, the female more active but doesn't chase the
others. The other fish will swim out of their way but I've never seen
any problems from them. They have always ruled the tank and will continue
to do so, but they dont seem bothered by the other fish at all now they
have company.


-mooris: 3 to 6, these fish really don't belong anywhere near pseudotropheus other than in very large tanks. They are open water fish,


Oh dear :( They are the ones that are smallest and seem happiest!
OOooops. They were the last in the store so came as a freebie, which
obviously I shouldn't have accepted! I'm trying to think what their
behaviour reminds me of... probably danios or something which is
fast, nimble and un bothered by the others. I thought they might be
dinner if anyone was, but they are fine!


-johanni: 5 to 7, typically they tend to be mellow enough to experiment with mixing and aggressive enough to hold their own except against more fearless pseudotropheus, or other melachromis (ie: chipokae, auratus). 


As you know from my "yellow cichlid ID" question, they weren't what
I thought I was getting. Oh well. They seem the shyest but are a great
shape for bending in and out of the rocks so they don't get bothered.


-pseudo est : (renamed Maylandia and then Metriclima es), this is potentially (and typically) your bad boy, a 7 or 8. 


Yet another fish that was mislabelled in the shop. And I noted the
names when I did my homework, rather than taking photos to double
check I WAS looking up the right thing. Oops.

They do seem to be the bad boys! They are picking on *each other*
mainly though - would it help to get more so the group is bigger, or
would that be a death knell for the others?


-pseudo soc: 5 to 6, like the johanni in the melanochromis family, socolofi does not share the same aggressive extremes as its pseudotropheus cousins. Puts up a good 'show' but quickly drops down the pecking order.


That's exactly how they are behaving. Bother, I really really like
these. They are my favourites, so beautiful. They show much better
colour in my tank than they did in the shop. So it seems if I like
them, I have to restock and then condemn them to a life of being chased. Ach. That's NOT good!


Advice? Lose two species (ie: Zebras and Hornets) and add more fish (ie: Labs & Powder Blues) ?


Okeydoke... Hmm. I don't like labs really. My shop only does the electric
yellows! But now I know what they really look like, I'd kill for a whole tank of powder blues! Ok...

(And I have to remember it's not down to what's "pretty" because an
empty tank with one fat fish is much less pretty than a well managed
tank of compromise fish!)


I would normally add more peacocks, but you are probably better off leaving the one Alpha to rule the noose. 


Especially as he is completely passive.


Ironically Red Zebras sometimes make very good benevolent rulers (after they have blazed a path through the lesser fish ;~). hth


Does that mean I should let them work it out? Or give it a bit
longer to see if they do? I think it was them who picked on the others, and now are picking on each other instead. 

I still don't know what to do! But at least I have some ideas.

You said the mooriis don't belong... but you don't suggest returning
them, which surprises me. What's the reasoning?

Thank you so much for your long and helpful answer.
I feel so ashamed by my incompetence. I should have known going
from community tank to malawi would not be as easy as all that!

I've had a Malawi tank for a year now. I totally agree with you on the bad labelling but to give a little defence for LFS's the names do seem to change quite frequently. After a year I'm still not sure of what fish I actually have .

For the first 6 months of owning the tank there were casualties :-( These were not usually the fish that I expected - generally they would get picked on after "lights out". I lost two rustys this way but managed to rescue the third. I also lost 2 Yellow Labs and one female Maylandia. None of these fish were the most aggressive or seemed to pose any threat to the status quo. I remember NetMax once describing this to me as these fish getting "voted out" which pretty much sums it up.

A few months ago there was a change of "Alpha" - one male Maylandia Lombardi took over from the other male - prior to this they seemed to divide the tank in two for a while. I'm troubled by the quality of life allowed to the ex-king. He spends most of the day hiding behind an internal filter but comes out to feed eargerly and is always out and about in the morning. I guess he takes advantage while the Alpha is still sleepy. I think that I will catch him and try and trade him in but the only thing that concerns me is whether he will end up worse off than he is now. He is also now quite a large fish so I need to go out and get a bigger net before I can do this. Another concern is that if the "underdog" goes then the Alpha will shift his attention onto another fish....

I've tried changing the terrain but this did not help with the infighting. Right now they seem quite peaceful although the Alpha is giving the female Maylandia a bit of grief (chasing her).

Another thing that I have noticed is that the females quite often end up with chewed tails - they usually grow back. This seems to coincide with mating as I usually notice the tails shortly before the fry appear.

As for stocking levels, I've found that mine are quite happily overstocking the tank themselves, with the Melanchronis Cyaneorhabdos (sold to me as Johanniis) being the most prolofic - the majority of fish in the tank are now blue. There are very few Maylandia fry probably because they are too busy infighting and also killed off one of their females - there are some female fry growing out at the moment (and another male).

So from my experience the Maylandia are the most aggressive. The Labs and Haps have been the most placid. The Melanchronis are somewhere inbetween.

I've never known exactly what the other two fish in the tank are. They are certainly Haps. Initially I thought they were OB Peacocks but after seeing an article in PFK I think that they might be Copadichromis trewavasae. These two are the most peaceful of the fish in the tank. Generally they keep to opposite sides of the tank. The only time I've seen the male be aggressive towards the other fish is just before mating. At this point he darkens in colour and gets a metallic blue sheen to him and will chase anyone who crosses his path - sadly there have been no surviving offspring yet.

The tank itself is full of caves. There is around 30Kilos of Ocean Rock - full of little holes for the fry to hide in. It also makes very good caves when piled up due to the irregular shape. The substrate is a mix of coral sand and marine sand...I know exactly what you mean about the sand mountains - lol. Everytime I put it even again (usually on each water change) there is frantic activity from most of the fish to build big mounds in the stuff.

IME the Malawis are the most aggressive fish that I have. But saying that apart from the emotional side of seeing fish bullied (which I hate when it happens) it is one of the more interesting tanks to watch from a behaviour point of view. And of course, it is very colourful even though it is now turning to almost exclusively blue fish because of the Melanchronis. I've not added any fish since last March to the tank after I finally finished setting it up - and that fish was a Plec.

Sorry for the ramble but I just thought I'd share my experiences

Gill
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