Re: When does life (in the womb) begin?

serenebabe <serenebabe@xxxxxxxxx> was an ugly child, and now the
world must suffer, like this:

On 2008-09-09 20:18:40 -0400, Ash Wensdee <ash@xxxxxxxxxxx> said:

serenebabe <serenebabe@xxxxxxxxx> was an ugly child, and now the
world must suffer, like this:

On 2008-09-09 19:22:43 -0400, Ash Wensdee <ash@xxxxxxxxxxx> said:

serenebabe <serenebabe@xxxxxxxxx> was an ugly child, and now the
world must suffer, like this:
<...>
And, I would not get into trying
to decide for a pregnant woman whether or not she has a child growing
in her or not. That's up to her.

No, it is not. That's a pretty ridiculous suggestion, akin to saying
that you'd let her decide whether she had cancer.
<...>

Hey, misc.writing, I'm pregnant! Seriously. It's part of why this has
been extra fun, this discussion.


Congratulations. I wish you a smooth pregnancy and a healthy baby.

So, no, I must not have been clear there. What I was saying is that
being pregnant doesn't mean there's a life inside a woman unless that
woman believes it to be the case. That sounded even more convoluted.

What?

I am saying that that is exactly like saying that you decide that you
have cancer or not. How is it different?

How would it be different from my saying that I'm pregnant? Do I not
have the same right to decide the internal state of my body?

Me: as soon as I was sure I am pregnant (just weeks ago), even though
the thing in me is about the size of an apple seed, or maybe now a
bean, I feel I have a life in me.

But your feelings are actually immaterial to whether there really is a
life in you. My point ^^^



Other women: have the widest array of possible views about what happens
with their body when an egg or two meets a sperm and implants in their
uterine lining. Some feel like I do. Some don't feel there's anything
going on until they feel it move. Some don't want to think about it at
all.


Their feelings are entirely immaterial. To see why, work through what
I'm saying above.

(Thanks. :-)

The issue of when life begins isn't something that can be decided by
anyone but the person carrying the pregnancy.

This is plainly untrue.

I will allow you to say that you can privilege one view over another,
but you cannot say that there cannot be more than one view. That's
absurd in its face.


It isn't like deciding if I have cancer or not.

Yes it is. You just aren't seeing why it is.

With cancer, there are
scientifically provable concepts (hi scientists, I don't know if I said
that right) that show cancer (cells multiplying out of control, etc.).

So only scientific concepts count?

With a pregnancy, there is no answer to "is it a life" besides what the
pregnant woman believes.


Of course there are answers.


I've got no problem acknowledging that there's some point, at some time
(3rd trimester, maybe?) where most reasonable people, particularly
medical professionals, would agree a pregnant woman is carrying a life
in her uterus. Don't know when that is, but I'm sure there's a point of
common understanding.

I'm sure you are wrong. Many people do not believe life begins until
birth. And there are, I'm pretty sure, people who do not believe
babies are alive until some point after birth.

And I think the suggestion that there is some magic point at which
babies spring into life is problematic. Good luck finding a doctor, or
anyone that thinks, who agrees with that.

The closest to it is the point of viability. Myself, I think that's a
reasonable compromise, and I'm content with the UK's abortion law,
which outlaws terminations after that point. Of course it's not
precise, but it captures the intuition that I think many people have
that if there is a problem with terminating a pregnancy, it becomes
greater when the foetus can survive outside the womb.

My point, as horrific as it sounds, is that it's still a woman's right
to do whatever she wants with her body.

I'm not seeing any foundation for your belief though, and I'm curious
that you so frankly allow that a woman is killing a child in doing so.

I wouldn't. I don't believe foetuses are "alive". I think that belief
becomes more problematic as the foetus ages. I think that later-term
terminations are ethically problematic, and I am not certain that
telling someone they are not free to choose what to do to their foetus
is different enough from telling them they are not free to choose what
to do with their child to be a basis for a viewpoint.

"Not certain" does not mean convinced otherwise though. My default
position is to agree with you, and I do, but I have qualms.


I do think you are effectively distracting me away from my points. My
points have and will remain: 1) people have a right to decide what
happens with their bodies no matter what's going on inside them

You have not established that right, actually.

2)
trying to settle on "when life begins" is unrelated to the right to
control our own bodies.

I think that you are in (1) having to establish a very strong right to
overcome objections related to (2) and I'm not seeing the strong
argument that should support (1). *Why* is your right to do what you
choose with your own body greater than another's right to life?

--

I'm John McCain and Big Oil approves this message.
http://gollyg.blogspot.com -- bullshit you can trust

Ash Wensdee
.

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