Re: the greatest thing about freedom is...

On Dec 10, 12:17�pm, John Ashby <J.V.As...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
$Zero wrote:
On Dec 10, 10:38 am, John Ashby <J.V.As...@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

[...]

So what is it that you recognise that convinces you of the
existence of God?

merely the truth of the existence of God.

Isn't that circular?

not really.

i'd say the same thing about my sense of humor.


You believe God exists because you believe God exists.

i believe my sense of humor exists because it does exist.

if you never saw any evidence of it yourself, would my sense of humor
stop existing?

That's permissible, but I'd like to see more open
acknowledgment of that. In your case, zero, I'll issue a similar
challenge I put to boots. You say you used to be an atheist but are now
a believer. What changed your mind? What events, experiences happened
to convince you?

lots.

very complex and stretching over many years of non-belief.

and even if i could explain it all, you'd only have my word for any of
it.

so what good would that do you?

And for a bonus, why should I accept that to convince me?

you probably shouldn't take the word of anybody but yourself and your
own experience.

And thus far, I've had no need of that hypothesis.

i never had need of it either.

besides never "needing" God, what made me a thoroughly convinced
atheist for much of my life were most of the people i came across who
were "representing" God.

they always seemed as silly and irrational and illogical and deluded
and gullible as a Flying Spaghetti Monster cult.

for the most part, they distracted me from realizing the truth with
all of their nonsensical positions and comb-overs and wigs and pleads
for cash and whatnot.

and whenever i argued with believers about their beliefs, which was
always fun, they always ended up grasping at straws and sounding and
looking stupid and ridiculous and gullible.

even so, there was always a certain mystery about life and the
universe that i felt somewhere in the back of my mind, regardless of
all the kooks and their nonsense -- though most of it i felt i could
easily explain in some rational way -- and that it didn't really
matter that there was some of it that what was beyond my current
understanding -- that was to be expected.

but there was an unexplainable goodness and peace of mind that i
sensed from one person in particular whom i knew personally and who
was not a loud-mouthed idiot. who had a quiet faith in God, totally
unpushy. never brought it up other than naturally, and not to
persuade. there was no ego thinger involved. they had nothing to
gain by sharing their faith as naturally as they did.

i lost touch with that person over the years but i never forgot their
humble joy, and smile, and their great sense of humor.

i continued on my way, having loads of fun, rationally enjoying the
ride in all its rational glory.

eventually, many things happened in my own life that independently
convinced moi, a major skeptic, of the existence of a Loving Supreme
Being.

but there's no point in my sharing any of the specifics, because you'd
never take my word for any of it -- it's way too complex to explain
anyway, so you really have to find out for yourself.

seek and ye shall find, and all of that.

actually, everyone comes across God all the time, day in, day out,
everywhere they look, even if they don't seek God out, because God's
"proof" is within you.

you just may not recognize it as such until you're ready to do so.

Which is why I'm
asking people like you and boots where the need came from? What drove,
in particular, your change of view?

my mysterious experiences.

otherwise, you're apt to be deceived.

with that in mind, would you personally prefer that God did NOT exist?

That's a good question. I've been talking to a friend recently about
hinduism and the personal responsibility which that religion stresses.
To that extent I "prefer" the non-existence of a Judaeo-Christian God
who makes that responsibility at one remove - we do good to win praise,
we do not do evil to avoid punishment, rather than being guided by the
intrinsic good or evil of the deeds.

i'm not sure i follow. which is which?

you prefer a godless hinduism because it makes you more directly
responsible for your actions both good and bad?

is that what you're saying?


can you rationally dismiss your feelings about that?

That's a trick question, isn't it?

no.

I can rationalise my feelings about that.
I have no intention of dismissing them, rather of owning them.

how so?


-$Zero...

after awhile, you figure out why nothing ever changes
http://groups.google.com/group/misc.writing/msg/d10e71396a9d48db

.

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