Re: A Brief History of Misc.Writing

On Sun, 27 May 2007 07:37:21 -0400, "Stan (the Man)"
<srkidLOSETHIS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Josh Hill wrote:
On Sat, 26 May 2007 16:37:47 -0400, "Stan (the Man)"
<srkidLOSETHIS@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

<...>

The best way to deal with a troll is to ignore him, but in practice,
it's impossible to get everyone to do that. What's worse, a few
posters will end up devoting their entire posting lives to flaming the
big bad troll or the big bad flamer, doing in the process more harm to
the group than the flamer ever did.

So, ignore the flamer *and* the flame retardants. It's not, as you
claim, impossible. Perhaps *you* can't manage to do it, but others can
and do.

No, they don't. It's dead.

As I said, others can and do. It's not impossible.

Check out AAPC if you want to see the consequences of one such battle.
It's completely trashed. And we did /everything/ we could to save the
group.
No, thanks.

Then don't say "but others can and do."

How is one related to the other. Just because your group didn't do it
doesn't negate what I said.

It takes only one exception to disprove a theory, and that group is a
very clear exception to your theory. The flames and trolls outnumber
the serious posts by a huge factor. The trolls nym shift, making
standard kill filters ineffectual. And if you try to attract new
posters, they take one look at the group and say "No, thanks." And we
aren't just talking about benign flaming here -- we're talking about
physical threats. It's history, and there's nothing you or I or anyone
could do about short of locking up a couple of nutters and the people
who make a career of trying to chase them away, and in so doing merely
keep them there.

If you're a very, very slow reader and want to bore yourself silly
reading attribution lines for every post, perhaps. Or you could just
look at the headers, and avoid every reply to the individual in
question, perhaps every reply to the replies. No thanks.

If you truly don't want to see a particular person's words, it's
possible to not see them. It's as simple as that. And, it's certainly
not impossible to refrain from responding.

But we aren't really talking about "possible" and "impossible" here,
are we? We're talking about the real world, and what people find it
worth their while to do.

That is a matter of fact, not opinion. He was of the *belief* that the
moon had broken off from the earth. He could only be right or wrong.

Nah. He often expressed the /opinion/ that the moon had broken off the
earth, based on his /belief/ in the same scenario. It eventually
became clear that his belief -- and so his opinion -- had been wrong.

If someone tells me that Mozart's 40th is a bad symphony, he's wrong
and his opinion is wrong. It's as simple as that.

e.g., I'm not going to put much stock in the opinion of a
physics group crank who claims he's disproved the Special Theory of
Relativity.
That's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. Either he did or
he didn't. And, you can believe it or not until it's proved, one way or
the other.

It's a theory, not a fact. A theory can never be proved. An opinion is
just a theory in which one happens to believe.

There's no proving or disproving opinions. They are simply neither right
nor wrong. Matters of fact are either right or wrong. The trick is in
knowing the difference.

That isn't a valid response: you've made no argument, merely restated
your proposition.

"Vanilla ice cream accounts for more sales than any other flavor" is a
matter of fact. And, it is either correct or incorrect.

"Vanilla ice cream tastes better than any other flavor" is a matter of
opinion and is neither correct nor incorrect.

It's incorrect if he's claiming an objective fact and happens to be
wrong. If he's simply saying "I like vanilla ice cream better than any
other flavor," it's correct, both as an opinion and as a matter of
fact.

Yes, your re-wording is a matter of fact, not opinion. But, that's not
what I wrote as the illustration. I said, "Vanilla ice cream tastes
better than any other flavor" is a matter of opinion, not a matter of
fact and is neither right nor wrong.

It seems you're not able to grasp the difference between matters of
opinion and matters of fact. And, frankly, as it's not that big a deal,
I haven't the energy or inclination to spend any more time trying to
help you understand, so I'll just let it go. That's not intended as an
insult, btw, as many people have difficulty with the concept.

But you're arguing from a philosophically naive position. Among other
things, you've confounded taste with opinion, and overlooked the
difference between subjective and universal judgments of taste. You've
failed to address the vagaries of everyday speech, e.g., the tendency
to express subjective judgments of taste as if they were universal
ones. And so forth. The sad thing is that you assume a Zen-like
arrogance, yet your argument wouldn't fly in a freshman philosophy
class. And, like you, I don't intend that as an insult. I just think
you're walling yourself off from concepts that would do justice to
your intellect, and that you lose out by doing so.

As you noted elsewhere in this exchange, we've begun to talk in circles,
so this seems like a good place to put it all to rest.

--
Josh

"President Washington, President Lincoln, President Wilson,
President Roosevelt have all authorized electronic
surveillance on a far broader scale." - Alberto Gonzales
.

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