Re: OT Health Care was Re: More Government Interference

On Aug 31, 5:27 pm, Rich Piehl
<rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Larry G wrote:
On Aug 31, 4:54 pm, Rich Piehl
<rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Free Lunch wrote:
On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 14:36:24 -0500, Rich Piehl
<rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in misc.transport.road:
Larry G wrote:
On Aug 31, 2:19 pm, Rich Piehl
<rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Larry G wrote:
On Aug 31, 1:08 pm, Rich Piehl
<rpiehl5REMOVETHIS...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Larry G wrote:
On Aug 31, 10:01 am, Rich Piehl
Irrelevant.  There are other factors that go into life expectancy
besides health care.
yes and virtually all of them are better for the other countries
including the fact that they cover everyone and do not abandon people.
I've told you my problem with a single payer government program, Larry.
  I've told you several.  And you agreed with my assessment of a 30-50%
across the board government spending cut.
and that is exactly what is accomplished with 30 other single payer
plans.
You're a one note song, Larry.  And compromise is not in there.
compromise is somewhere between NO GOVT involvement and Single
Payer... IMHO.
but we can't get to any compromise if people are not telling the truth
about the realities.
we have the most expensive healthcare system in the world and it's
projected to double in costs in a decade and yet it is the only
healthcare system that is not single-payer govt health care.
so we know we have a problem that if left like it is (which the
wingnuts say we should do) .. that it will get even worse and even
more folks will lose their insurance.
Name calling.  Good job of impartially considering others opinions with
that as a preface.
again..you're evading and running away from the truth here.. using
distractions to evade dealing with the truth.. much like the folks are
the town meetings.
we also are told that the govt is too incompetent to run healthcare
and that if they do the costs will inevitably explode and add to the
deficit but 30 other countries Governments have, in fact, done exactly
that, and their healthcare costs are 1/2 of ours.
Are those other governments able to control other costs?  Ours isn't.
Our government's track record is far different than theirs.  So that's
an invalid argument.
we cant' have an honest debate much less work to compromise when
people won't even admit to basic facts and realities as a starting
point.
You mean like the one that says the Canadian system is going broke and
in danger of collapse with an infusion of government money?  Like
failing mention some of the horror stories of the British system?
  which are lies and myths when you get to the truth..   if those
systems are so bad how come they work better than ours and those
governments don't go back to private sector care like we have?
you're seriously evading the reality ... buying the myths and lies..
promoted by those who don't care what the truth is.
the folks who are venting their spleens spouting these myths and lies
are either ignorant (and unwilling to actually learn the facts) or
they know but lying and misrepresenting the truth is in their minds a
valid strategy for opposing something.
There are myths and lies on both sides, Larry.
really?  then why do you keep repeating the lies and myths even when
you get shown the truth?
The TRUTH is that the govt does many, many functions - some of them
well, some of them not as good, some..bad.. but the answer is not to
say that the govt - as an entity - is too incompetent to do any of
these functions
They do very few things well.  They do a lot more things poorly.
30 govts do health care better than us... that's the truth.
and the FACTS prove that GOVT ... CAN  run a single-payer healthcare
system  for 1/2 the money that private heathcare charges.
And the government CAN do lots of stuff.  But whether they will is
another question.
that's the facts.
No, that's your perspective on the facts.  Two VERY different things
that you refuse to acknowledge.
here's the truth:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:International_Comparison_-_Healthca...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/21/AR200...
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/08/us-health-spending-break...
but you ignore this.. and try to hand-wave it away.. and believe what
you want and the misinformation spouted by the wingnuts... you repeat
what they say instead of dealing with the FACTS which are right in
front on you but you won't admit it.
that's why we won't have compromise.. because you do not want it to
start with.
this is why the right wingers and their supporters are becoming a
permanent minority..
Bullcrap.  I've shot most of that down and you ignore it, calling it
myth, but never disproving it.
Quit beating the same damn dead horse.  I told you what I would consider
  necessary.  Has spending been cut 30-50%?  You agreed that would be
good.  Have they been cut 20%?  Have they been cut 10?
No?  Come back and see when they have.  Until then you are interested in
compromise.  You're only giving it lip service.
if the idea is to adopt a plan that has been used in 30 other
countries to cut costs and you are opposed to that path.. then you
have a self-fulling prophecy.
How does adopting a plan used by other countries for  health care that
cut the existing Federal budget (before health care) by 30-50% out of
all government programs programs?  Sorry, you have the cart before the
horse.
none ... it don't work that way .. none of those 30 countries cut
their budgets prior to adopting govt healthcare but in doing so.. they
prepared for the future to keep costs under control..
you're trying to link the other parts of the budget to healthcare when
you were apparently fine with a huge deficit while we spent more money
on a wrong war and billions for useless Homeland Defense crap...
where was your idea of cart and horse then?
None of those other countries had a 9 trillion dollar deficit.
Nor does the United States.
You're right. but that's what's projected it will be in 10 years if
nothing is done.  And that's before health care or cap & trade, or
anything else new.

http://www.suntimes.com/news/huntley/1739133,CST-EDT-HUNT28.article

The Obama administration now projects the nation's 10-year deficit at $9 trillion. That's $2 trillion, or nearly 30 percent, more than it estimated earlier this year. And the new debt figure may be too rosy.

these are PROJECTIONS and quite often they are used warn that -
without changes...

using these projections as a hammer against the current administration
after 8 months in office proves that you are totally biased against
it... unwilling to give them credit even when they deserve it.

And PROJECTION was $7 trillion a month ago.  But it's all relative.
Let's do another couple trillion for health care.  And then another few
trillion so everyone has 25,000 square ft houses..

We've been through this before Larry.

you have projections done by folks who have been in office for 8
months who were dealing with an economic meltdown and who - made a
judgement call on whether or not a stimulus (spending lots of money)
was the right answer.

it was not a wanton.. purposeful plan that they had all along planned
to do.

they were reacting to something that has not happened in 70 years and
literally flying by the seat of their pants.. and they were not
alone.. they came onboard while the previous administration was also
flying by the seat of it's pants.

but according to you.. this is an irresponsible administration that
did all of this not as a considered decision in the context of an
economic meltdown but as an experiment in 'socialism".

you guy are biased... not interested in the facts.. at all..



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