Re: DOT equals dept of transporation right? Then why always highways?

On Feb 8, 8:37 am, John Lansford <jlnsf...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Larry G <gross.la...@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
There are folks - that would ride a bike to these lots to catch their
rides. It's good exercise which many folks lack and want more of.
There are folks - like myself - that would ride a bike to the post
office - everyday - since that's where my mail goes...  I can give
countless examples... folks that work at colleges, hospitals...even
DOT offices !!!!   HORRORS!  that would ride - for transportation and
get some good exercise to boot.

But while we have some great urban trails - we do not have a bike
transportation 'network'. Note that both of the examples provided are
linear - not spoked... you literally cannot get from point A to point
B if 'A' or "B" or not close to the linear trail.

Arif alluded to one of the big issues - which is speed differential.
So, providing separate lanes is potentially a "good" thing if a way
can be found to keep debris from building up on it.

And yet most experienced cyclists say that the debris issue is not
necessarily a deterrent to them using the facilities.  The debris
issue normally shows up on rural paved shoulders, but a 4' paved
shoulder is close enough to the travel lanes to remain at least
partially swept by the traffic.

It could be something as simple as buying a sweeping machine and
periodically sweeping... bike lanes - much like urban areas routinely
sweep city streets.

That's one of the reasons why the wider outside lanes (14' wide) work
better in urban areas.  Street sweepers clear over to the curb, so
they would be clearing the area the cyclists use at the same time. For
the reasons I have said --repeatedly--, dedicated bike lanes are NOT
safer in built up urban areas than wider outside lanes.

or it could be a design solution to keep debris from building up....
perhaps a "mini" curb to keep road debris from climbing up on a bike
lane

Resulting in water being trapped in the vehicular travel lane, and a
dual drainage system.  Good idea there, Larry.

or perhaps some other clever design that would not impede traffic
or introduce an unsafe condition.

Lots of clever people have looked into this, Larry, and the wider
outside lane/paved shoulder bike lane options are what has been
developed.

City Streets - I don't think you need a bike lane... as long as the
speed differential is acceptable.

Meaning they'd need bicycle improvements for any road signed over
35mph, or that had large vehicles using it (buses, trucks).  NOT
dedicated bike lanes, though, for reasons I've mentioned previously.

Rural and suburban roads are another story - Any road where speeds get
up past 45 or so - I think you need to separate the bike from the road
- especially if there are sight-distance issues that one might see on
a road with curves and hills... like many rural and rural-turned-
suburban roads can be.

Separate how?  On a completely different "road"?  You do realize that
both cyclists and researchers have found that putting cyclists on
"bike trails" instead of on the road leads to two problems.  

1) An attitude by motorists to resist cyclists from using paved roads
since "they've got their own trail, don't use my road".

2) Tendency for pedestrians to use the bike trail, resulting in a
hazardous mix of users, plus the issue on how to cross vehicular roads
with the trails.

I'm not complaining as much as I am saying - that if we are truly
serious about incorporating bikes - as a transportation option (vice a
recreational amenity) - then we need to address these issues...
programmatically as a policy. The question needs to be asked -
"well ..how WOULD someone get from point to point.

Larry, this is an incremental process.  Our current road system took
decades to construct, and is used by many orders of magnitude more
people than would use cycling facilities.  I know that in every one of
my urban widening projects over the last 12 years, bicycle facilities
have been added to each and every one (other than the freeways). Money
to improve existing roads for bicycles is available to small towns and
many cities have their own bicycle improvement plan.  

Most folks (including avid bikers) that money is the issue and that
bikers - don't really pay the same way that motorists do.... and I do
note that not that long ago in Virginia - VDOT did change their policy
to make bike lanes on new roads the default as opposed to them being
"opt-in" but still.. I notice that if doing those lanes increase the
cost of the project that there is pressure to drop them - as they did
with a recent 2-mile addition where I live - which is a real shame
because it could have tied in to an adjacent National Battlefield -
and allowed tourism biking.

So did they drop dedicated "bike lanes" (the 4'+ paved shoulder or
area between vehicular lane and curb) or were these the wider outside
lanes (14') that were eliminated due to cost?  If this is taking
place, then it's an organizational issue that needs to be lobbied
against by cyclists and the cities as well.  Once a road is widened
with curbing, it's extremely difficult to ever widen it again to add
bicycle facilities on it.  This needs to be considered as important as
a bridge's or highway's paved width because of the extreme costs
involved in redoing it later on.

just FYI -

" one UK study estimated that cycle path users are seven times more
likely to get punctures than are road cyclists.[76] Both sides of the
argument acknowledge that many cyclists will simply refuse to use
poorly maintained facilities. Cycle facilities skeptics go further and
argue that there is no point funding new cycle facilities unless there
is a simultaneous commitment of increased funds to maintenance and
sweeping afterwards."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bikeway#Rural_.2F_Arterial_roads

the issues I have brought up are long-standing ... community issues -
not just my opinion....

but I take your comments to heart with respect to the difficulties
associated with trying to back-fit into an existing decades-old road
network.

but I'd actually argue that putting bike lanes on new/improved roads
everywhere that ends up with just more disconnected segments is
ineffective and wasteful to a certain degree.

I've seen more than a few "stranded" bike lanes.. that really don't go
anywhere and probably never will...

What I'd like to see is a bike network plan - where the priorities are
to identify where connecting facilities are needed and then prioritize
them with the limited funding... as opposed to just splatting out more
and more disconnected (and expensive) segments.

similar to what they've tried to do with the East Coast Bikeway but on
regional scales...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Coast_Greenway
.

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